Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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Guojing

Banned
#1
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#1
The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:
  1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
  2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
  3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
  4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
  5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
  6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
  7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
  8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
  9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
  10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.
Any comments and different perspectives?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#6
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#6
Dino246 said:
Ultimately, the same thing as always: God's sovereignty.
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It was not for that purpose, if you have read my above argument.

But thanks for your different perspective.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#8
Jun 30, 2015
25,606
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#8
Guojing said:
It was not for that purpose, if you have read my above argument.

But thanks for your different perspective.
Click to expand...
I reject your argument because it is deeply flawed, far from exhaustive, and inherently biased.

God gave the sign of the rainbow thousands of years before Israel existed, therefore your first point is annulled.

Revelation is replete with signs and wonders, and none of it occurred prior to the events recorded in Acts 28, therefore your conclusion is annulled.

There is plenty of evidence today of God continuing to work through signs and wonders, therefore your premise is annulled.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#10
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#10
Dino246 said:
I reject your argument because it is deeply flawed, far from exhaustive, and inherently biased.

God gave the sign of the rainbow thousands of years before Israel existed, therefore your first point is annulled.

Revelation is replete with signs and wonders, and none of it occurred prior to the events recorded in Acts 28, therefore your conclusion is annulled.

There is plenty of evidence today of God continuing to work through signs and wonders, therefore your premise is annulled.
Click to expand...
The gospel of the kingdom will restart at the Tribulation, so yes signs and wonders will restart again then.

If that is your point, it is taken, thanks
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#12
Jun 30, 2015
25,606
13,863
113
#12
Guojing said:
The gospel of the kingdom will restart at the Tribulation, so yes signs and wonders will restart again then.

If that is your point, it is taken, thanks
Click to expand...
No, that's not my point at all. I would encourage you to read Lee Strobel's The Case for Miracles.
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#13
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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#13
Guojing said:
Thanks, can you give some examples of that?
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Myself healed
Myself baptized in the HolySpirit in 1977 through the laying on of hands, with tongues accompanying.
My dog healed of Cushing's disease . Look it up. It is 100% fatal.

THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#14
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#14
Absolutely said:
Myself healed
Myself baptized in the HolySpirit in 1977 through the laying on of hands, with tongues accompanying.
My dog healed of Cushing's disease . Look it up. It is 100% fatal.

THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Yes Amen, that is in line with what Paul stated for the Body of Christ here

Philippians 2:27, KJV: "For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow."

But is that healing a sign? A sign for what?
 
A

AlmondJoy

Active member
#17
Oct 31, 2020
245
71
28
#17
Guojing said:
The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:
  1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
  2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
  3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
  4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
  5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
  6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
  7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
  8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
  9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
  10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.
Any comments and different perspectives?
Click to expand...
Ever wonder why when you get to chapter 28 of the book of Acts it closes leaving you scratching your head....no benediction?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#18
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#18
AlmondJoy said:
Ever wonder why when you get to chapter 28 of the book of Acts it closes leaving you scratching your head....no benediction?
Click to expand...
Once I understood what Romans 9 to 11 was actually saying, the conclusion of Acts, in Acts 28 made more sense to me.

How about you?
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
#19
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
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#19
To claim cessation as "straightforward" you would have to explain the leap that is supposed to happen for the gifts to cease. The Scripture states very precisely the moment when the gifts would cease,

1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, THEN that which is in part [from context, spiritual gifts] shall be done away.
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but THEN face to face: now I know in part; but THEN shall I know even as also I am known.

Compared to apostle Paul, do you know God as you are known, and also claim that Paul did NOT know Him in that way?
Compared to apostle Paul, do you see Christ face to face, and claim apostle Paul did NOT, and only saw Him through a glass darkly compared to you?
Compared to the times of apostle Paul, what perfect thing did come since, which was NOT there yet in his times?
You would have to fit all three.
In addition.
Or are you claiming that the apostles and the first believers were like cymbals so they had gifts, while nowadays quality of believers changed dramatically and they are not like cymbals, so they don't have gifts?
 
A

AlmondJoy

Active member
#20
Oct 31, 2020
245
71
28
#20
Guojing said:
Once I understood what Romans 9 to 11 was actually saying, the conclusion of Acts, in Acts 28 made more sense to me.

How about you?
Click to expand...
No. I believe Luke started telling Theopolus of the things Jesus began to do......Act 1

Acts 2 the Holy Ghost fell and birthed the church and it hasn't stopped and won't stop until the Holy Ghost is called out of the world and when He goes im going with Him
 
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