Why do some people believe and some do not?

[PaulThomson]

God literally tells the prophet, "make" their ears dull. that's a commandment.

so unless you think it's Isaiah doing it, um, you are really stretching to get around the fact.

Discourse analysis would say that imperatives do not always express commands. If my son wants to hang out with drug dealer friends and I am encouraging him not to participate in their criminal activities, but try to persuade them to give up that vice, he might complain,
"But I am likely to make them turn on me and treat me as their enemy." I could respond,
"Then, make them turn on you and treat you as an enemy."

Does that mean I want them to turn on my son and treat him with enmity? No. I don't want them to do that. I want them to forsake their drug-dealing and remain his friend. I'm not using the imperative as a command, but to indicate my awareness that this is a potential consequence that my son needs to be ready suffer for the sake of trying to turn his friends. I am telling my son, "Talk to them even though it might mean you become their enemy."

So, rather than God commanding rebellion, God could be telling Isaiah, "Speak to My people, but be willing to suffer the resistance and rejection you are expecting toward My message."

 

[PaulThomson]

if it was God's intention to enlighten them by speaking in intentionally obscure metaphors rather than clear speech, why did God fail to do so?

is He not very good at communicating, or does He really not understand people's hearts?

How do you know God failed to do so? If I want to lead a horse to climb willingly into a horse float, I may pull on the harness with a firm force. If the horse resists, I have two choices. Use more force or less force. If I use more force, the horse may feel threatened and resist more, or it might submit. If I use lighter force, the horse may take a step or two in response to my coaxing, and then continue to slowly move into the float. Or it may in the see the float as a trap and stop advancing. Or it may take no steps at all. Ultimately, whether the horse enters the float depends on the horse's will.

I did not fail to get the horse to move willingly, if the horse takes one step but then refuses to go, even though I might fail to get it all the way into the float. If I am looking for willing compliance, I cannot rely on brute force to make the horse do what I want. Your question does not take account of God's desire for willing study and willing compliance. If God is love, and love does not demand it's own way, the failure of a hearer to respond with a desire to understand is not evidence that the speaker cannot communicate effectively.

 

[studier]

I've been persuaded. What scripture do you believe disqualifies the perspective that God wants everyone to become softer-hearted to His truth, and never wants to harden hearts to His truth?

What Scripture do you believe disqualifies the perspective that God does not desire to harden hearts when He does harden hearts?

I currently think it's as I posited to @GWH. Based upon His Righteousness and Justice for example, He ultimately has to be said to desire hardening hearts because He does harden hearts that self-initiate the hardening process. Either this or He does what He does not desire since He does harden hearts.

I think desire works both ways in a creation that has both good and bad.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Maybe God's hardening of hearts can be likened to not casting pearls before swine.

 

[posthuman]

Discourse analysis would say that imperatives do not always express commands. If my son wants to hang out with drug dealer friends and I am encouraging him not to participate in their criminal activities, but try to persuade them to give up that vice, he might complain,
"But I am likely to make them turn on me and treat me as their enemy." I could respond,
"Then, make them turn on you and treat you as an enemy."

You're still giving him an imperative: an imperative is an imperative, even if it has a qualifier.

but in Isaiah there is no "if"

you are not at all being persuasive; in fact, your position is looking weaker and weaker and weaker with every argument you try. to be expected, since, you are trying to argue God's word isn't what it says.

 

[Magenta]

Maybe God's hardening of hearts can be likened to not casting pearls before swine.

God told us why He hardened Pharaoh's heart... In Exodus 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart so He could perform signs and wonders in Egypt, demonstrating
His supremacy over all the false gods in the land, to fulfill his covenant with the Israelites.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display
My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Romans 9:17

The verse before that specifically says:

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 9:18; John 6:44; John 6:65; John 6:37; John 6:63; Titus 3:5 ~ God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. He saved us because of His mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .

 

[posthuman]

So, rather than God commanding rebellion, God could be telling Isaiah, "Speak to My people, but be willing to suffer the resistance and rejection you are expecting toward My message."

but that is not what God says here, at all.

God says,

Go, and tell this people, ​

Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.​

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; ​

lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​

​

we are not writing a scripture of things we think God should have said, mr. Thompson.
we are reading a scripture of things God has actually said.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 4:17-18; Luke 6:43; Jeremiah 10:14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.

 

[posthuman]

How do you know God failed to do so?

you misunderstand me.
God does not fail. ever.

 

[Magenta]

but that is not what God says here, at all.

God says,

Go, and tell this people, ​

Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.​

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; ​

lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​

​

we are not writing a scripture of things we think God should have said, mr. Thompson.
we are reading a scripture of things God has actually said.

Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The LXX has a little different rendering of those verses. It doesn't indicate an action on God's part, and looking at the Hebrew, I'm not sure it does either

And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people? And I said, behold, I am here, send me. And he said, Go, and say to this people, Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. ​

​

For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Isaiah 6:8-10​

 

[Magenta]

Isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying: “Whom shall I send? Who will go for Us?” And I said: “Here am I. Send me!”

 

[posthuman]

Ultimately, whether the horse enters the float depends on the horse's will.

the horses in the ark were not there by their will, or even by Noah's, but by God's.

Romans 9:16​

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.​

​

​

 

[posthuman]

The LXX has a little different rendering of those verses. It doesn't indicate an action on God's part, and looking at the Hebrew, I'm not sure it does either

And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people? And I said, behold, I am here, send me. And he said, Go, and say to this people, Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. ​

​

For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Isaiah 6:8-10​

please have a look at how Christ and His apostles cited this text.

Matthew 13:10-17, Mark 4:10-12, John 12:37-40, Acts 28:25-28, Romans 11:7-10

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

please have a look at how Christ and His apostles cited this text.

Matthew 13:10-17, Mark 4:10-12, John 12:37-40, Acts 28:25-28, Romans 11:7-10

I'm don't have a dog in this fight. I was just interested in what the LXX says and thought I'd share in case it can edify

 

[posthuman]

Your question does not take account of God's desire for willing study and willing compliance.

no, you are projecting into me what you think must be the conclusion of the tearing down of your eisegwtical presuppositions.

your objections are not taking into account what the scripture literally says: God indeed hardens hearts, closes eyes, shuts ears and gives a spirit of stupor.
i am not speculatively arguing about what may or may not lead up to these actions; i am confirming and showing that it is indeed true, just as He has written.

 

[posthuman]

I'm don't have a dog in this fight. I was just interested in what the LXX says and thought I'd share in case it can edify

i don't have a dog,
but my cats don't struggle with God

 

[Magenta]

please have a look at how Christ and His apostles cited this text.

Matthew 13:10-17, Mark 4:10-12, John 12:37-40, Acts 28:25-28, Romans 11:7-10

John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”

 

[posthuman]

I'm don't have a dog in this fight. I was just interested in what the LXX says and thought I'd share in case it can edify

seeing how at least 4 references to the Isaiah passage in the NT are interpreted, we should be able to discern the right interpretation of it, that's all.