Why do some people believe and some do not?
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Yes, I would have to agree with @Pilgrimshope akin to entering the Twilight Zone
What is the point of "faith" (trusting in God and His offer of the gift of salvation ) if one is already regenerated?
This doctrine essentially makes faith superfluous.
What is the point of "faith" (trusting in God and His offer of the gift of salvation ) if one is already regenerated?
This doctrine essentially makes faith superfluous.
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He also lied about knowing good and evil. Adam and Eve got to taste evil that day but they were still clueless about what is good and what is evil. There is only one place a person can learn good from evil and that's the Word of God.
I never said her DNA did. Nor does our DNA make us sin. The corruption in our DNA is a reactive mechanism that deceives the mind into thinking self first. It is the sin nature that lures us away, not our DNA or body per se. In Eve's case, it was the serpent who tempted her.
I have yet to see you explain what is this "other law in our flesh".
I never said her DNA did. Nor does our DNA make us sin. The corruption in our DNA is a reactive mechanism that deceives the mind into thinking self first. It is the sin nature that lures us away, not our DNA or body per se. In Eve's case, it was the serpent who tempted her.
I have yet to see you explain what is this "other law in our flesh".
I’m not really following everyone in the thread but Pretty clearly we need to change though from how we lived before we met Jesus and believed in him
idea of being born again is about Remission of a persons sins and renewal of thier mind and heart by believing the gospel
No one is actually born again as we were born before or as a different being or anything it’s a concept or renewing a sinners corrupt nature and making them a child of God by thier new nature that comes when they start hearing and believing the gospel.
The holy spirit we receive sister is a companion to be with us and to witness together with our spirit to lead and guide and teach us renewing and cleansing us not replacing the person with a different person literally but through the Holy Ghost healing and saving and redeeming and changing the person through their belief of the gospel .
and ultimately saving our spirit from the impending death we face at judgement the second death. Bieng born again is a spiritual concept sister akin also to having died and being risen again to a new life having our sins remitted so they aren’t between us and God anymore
The change of a persons mind happens as we listen to the gospel believing changes our belief and convictions eventually and actions then come from a renewed nature made again in tbe image of Gods son
idea of being born again is about Remission of a persons sins and renewal of thier mind and heart by believing the gospel
No one is actually born again as we were born before or as a different being or anything it’s a concept or renewing a sinners corrupt nature and making them a child of God by thier new nature that comes when they start hearing and believing the gospel.
The holy spirit we receive sister is a companion to be with us and to witness together with our spirit to lead and guide and teach us renewing and cleansing us not replacing the person with a different person literally but through the Holy Ghost healing and saving and redeeming and changing the person through their belief of the gospel .
and ultimately saving our spirit from the impending death we face at judgement the second death. Bieng born again is a spiritual concept sister akin also to having died and being risen again to a new life having our sins remitted so they aren’t between us and God anymore
The change of a persons mind happens as we listen to the gospel believing changes our belief and convictions eventually and actions then come from a renewed nature made again in tbe image of Gods son
The change comes because God has replaced our stony heart with a heart of flesh so that we may love Him. What other people are saying is that that stony heart and hostile to God mind is capable of doing what only the spiritual person can which is submit to the will of God. I understand very well what's involved in salvation but it seems that many here do not. They deny a plethora of verses about the natural man. We believe with our heart ... that stony heart is not good ground for growing faith. There are parables that make this pretty plain. Even Jesus said that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. And you know it's kind of similar to what Scripture says about leopard changing its spots or an Ethiopian the color of his skin. Of course a lot of these people here deny that the natural man is a bad guy ... they think he's a good guy capable of generating faith on his own through the sheer force of his will. But again there are many verses that say it is not by the will or desire or effort of man but by the will and desire of God.
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“What other people are saying is that that stony heart and hostile to God mind is capable of doing what only the spiritual person can which is submit to the will of God.”
“There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”
Luke 1:5-6 KJV
Neither of these had been born again and it was clearly not impossible for them
ehat m trying to understand sis from you is what do you mean when you say “ the natural man ?” Or the “ spiritual man “ what do those two phrases mean to you is what I am wanting to know .
How does a person be identified as a spiritual man and how does one be ide tidied as a natural man incapable of hearing and believing God ?
“There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”
Luke 1:5-6 KJV
Neither of these had been born again and it was clearly not impossible for them
ehat m trying to understand sis from you is what do you mean when you say “ the natural man ?” Or the “ spiritual man “ what do those two phrases mean to you is what I am wanting to know .
How does a person be identified as a spiritual man and how does one be ide tidied as a natural man incapable of hearing and believing God ?
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amen notice what came first
“having heard and believed the word of truth— the gospel of your salvation— “
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
Simple math hear the gospel … believe and be saved , no secret sauce required and is able to save anyone
“having heard and believed the word of truth— the gospel of your salvation— “
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
Simple math hear the gospel … believe and be saved , no secret sauce required and is able to save anyone
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What secret sauce are you talking about? I know I have never mentioned it. Is it some ingredient that others are discussing? I do not read all the posts, so if the secret sauce is something they have added to salvation I know nothing of it, and I'm certain it is not mentioned in the Bible. But I am glad you agree with what I have said. Or do you? Sometimes it is hard to tell, really, and I know others have this difficulty with you also. Do you find having faith and being sealed with the Holy Spirit of God superfluous or not? Someone mentioned you in the post this line of discussion came out of, so again I cannot be sure. They seemed to think you found faith superfluous, which is why I mentioned being sealed with the Holy Spirit in response. Sealed the Holy Spirit as a result of believing and having faith. That rather does lay waste to the claim that faith is superfluous. Of course I fully acknowledge that they could have been lying about you. I know they have lied about me, and I know for a fact that they support others in their lies also. I understand that it can be difficult keeping track of who is who in this messy melee. I don't read all the trash they post because I do not want to be polluted by it. Some of it is truly disgusting.
Also I wanted to ask you if you did not bother to go back and read the link I gave the other day, possibly new year's day but if not then, then surely earlier just this week. It could have been yesterday too but I don't think so because I was at work yesterday and find including links and whatnot much more complicated and difficult on my phone. Someone had quoted Cameron saying that guy sure has a lot of problems and Cameron said it was sarcasm, though I had always considered it humour. I mention all that because I know that was when I drew your attention to the post in question laying out many of the qualities and characteristics of natural men and fools. That was the "that guy" being referred to. I have laid out numerous characteristics of the natural man quite few times, surely more times than could be counted on my fingers and probably toes too. If you go back to page one there are two panels about him. One has so many verses I had to print them out because otherwise the font is too small, and in fact more got printed out than could fit on the panel itself even with the small font. But that must have been the election thread which is very similar to this one just having gone on longer. Still post number ten here has a list of the natural man's characteristics, and then if you go to the election thread on page one, posts number two and three have the panels I was referring to. Let me know when you have considered the many verses cited. Some of them as I have said, I have cited again and again and again and again and again and again and again. More often than not they get ignored.
Also I wanted to ask you if you did not bother to go back and read the link I gave the other day, possibly new year's day but if not then, then surely earlier just this week. It could have been yesterday too but I don't think so because I was at work yesterday and find including links and whatnot much more complicated and difficult on my phone. Someone had quoted Cameron saying that guy sure has a lot of problems and Cameron said it was sarcasm, though I had always considered it humour. I mention all that because I know that was when I drew your attention to the post in question laying out many of the qualities and characteristics of natural men and fools. That was the "that guy" being referred to. I have laid out numerous characteristics of the natural man quite few times, surely more times than could be counted on my fingers and probably toes too. If you go back to page one there are two panels about him. One has so many verses I had to print them out because otherwise the font is too small, and in fact more got printed out than could fit on the panel itself even with the small font. But that must have been the election thread which is very similar to this one just having gone on longer. Still post number ten here has a list of the natural man's characteristics, and then if you go to the election thread on page one, posts number two and three have the panels I was referring to. Let me know when you have considered the many verses cited. Some of them as I have said, I have cited again and again and again and again and again and again and again. More often than not they get ignored.
But hunger etc are longings of the flesh and according to you they are the sinful nature.
You also said that the natural man is the soulish man, so once again you are placing the sin nature in the soul and I have already shown you it is impossible for the sin nature to be in the soul otherwise we could not desire good. It would be in constant opposition to the Spirit who is good. You are effectively saying there is a battle between the mind and the mind, tearing itself apart, but you don't seem to realise that.
I think you need to do a lot more homework on the subject.
You also said that the natural man is the soulish man, so once again you are placing the sin nature in the soul and I have already shown you it is impossible for the sin nature to be in the soul otherwise we could not desire good. It would be in constant opposition to the Spirit who is good. You are effectively saying there is a battle between the mind and the mind, tearing itself apart, but you don't seem to realise that.
I think you need to do a lot more homework on the subject.
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:12-13
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:16-21 KJV
Paul isn’t telling us that we can’t do it he’s teaching us how to overcome the flesh but what does it actually mean to follow the spirit ? and crucify the flesh ?
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
Galatians 5:24-26
What does that actually mean to walk after the spirit ? And not after the flesh ?
There’s so much about the flesh and spirit in the nt and old because that’s mankinds makeup . a body of flesh and a spirit within making mankind a living soul.
It became a conflict with the knowledge of good and evil rather than one mind after Gods word which is mans design. we became double minded after the fruit knowing both good and evil
“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.”
Romans 7:21 KJV
That isnt meant to be and is what makes us sinners we’re not meant for that knowledge of good and evil ( the law of Moses )
“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.”
Deuteronomy 30:15-18
We’re meant rather to eat from the tree of life and walk by the word of the lord
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
We aren’t incapable we’re just corrupt and need to be washed clean of the evil and sinful conscience we have and taught the truth of Gods Will by Jesus . Because we’re corrupt we eventually choose sin through temptation and need forgivness and atonement , reconciliation
Romans 8:12-13
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:16-21 KJV
Paul isn’t telling us that we can’t do it he’s teaching us how to overcome the flesh but what does it actually mean to follow the spirit ? and crucify the flesh ?
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
Galatians 5:24-26
What does that actually mean to walk after the spirit ? And not after the flesh ?
There’s so much about the flesh and spirit in the nt and old because that’s mankinds makeup . a body of flesh and a spirit within making mankind a living soul.
It became a conflict with the knowledge of good and evil rather than one mind after Gods word which is mans design. we became double minded after the fruit knowing both good and evil
“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.”
Romans 7:21 KJV
That isnt meant to be and is what makes us sinners we’re not meant for that knowledge of good and evil ( the law of Moses )
“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.”
Deuteronomy 30:15-18
We’re meant rather to eat from the tree of life and walk by the word of the lord
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
We aren’t incapable we’re just corrupt and need to be washed clean of the evil and sinful conscience we have and taught the truth of Gods Will by Jesus . Because we’re corrupt we eventually choose sin through temptation and need forgivness and atonement , reconciliation
“Do you find having faith and being sealed with the Holy Spirit of God “
What I think is people take a verse like this
“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
Ephesians 4:30 KJV
and they remove it from what Paul’s saying with that sentance and make it i to what it’s not
And ….lol hold on sister I need to look up superfluous real quick so I know what it means 😂
“Do you find having faith and being sealed with the Holy Spirit of God superfluous or not? “
if you have to ask me that we’ve definately mis communicated …. What I think is people have a lot of different opinions about what a sentance like “ sealed with the spirit “ actually means
also we all argue in circles and no one ever learns anything they aren’t saying lol
twilight zone I tell ya
What I think is people take a verse like this
“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
Ephesians 4:30 KJV
and they remove it from what Paul’s saying with that sentance and make it i to what it’s not
And ….lol hold on sister I need to look up superfluous real quick so I know what it means 😂
“Do you find having faith and being sealed with the Holy Spirit of God superfluous or not? “
if you have to ask me that we’ve definately mis communicated …. What I think is people have a lot of different opinions about what a sentance like “ sealed with the spirit “ actually means
also we all argue in circles and no one ever learns anything they aren’t saying lol
twilight zone I tell ya
Well here is the original post I responded to earlier today:
So you were mentioned in relation to saying faith is superfluous.
Which is why I asked if it is what you think or not.
Because I want to make sure if you do, or if you don't.
Because unlike others here I do not like to make assumptions.
Yes, I would have to agree with @Pilgrimshope akin to entering the Twilight Zone
What is the point of "faith" (trusting in God and His offer of the gift of salvation ) if one is already regenerated?
This doctrine essentially makes faith superfluous.
What is the point of "faith" (trusting in God and His offer of the gift of salvation ) if one is already regenerated?
This doctrine essentially makes faith superfluous.
Which is why I asked if it is what you think or not.
Because I want to make sure if you do, or if you don't.
Because unlike others here I do not like to make assumptions.
“Choose sin and then we become a slave of sin. Yes, that is what Jesus said. SLAVE.”
well actually it depends on what version of the Bible you read sister
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:31-32, 34-36 KJV
my point is though look at what he’s saying before and after him that single line
“said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
He isn’t making then free first then they’ll keep his word he’s telling them to keep his word and then they’ll know the truth and be set free from serving sin
But according (it seems like ) to some of you guys no one can ever do that I til God specially enables them by making then a new person but only he oredestinested who he’s going to do thie for and o my those folks are enabled to hesr and believe and be saved ect
i honestly don’t know sister seems like another wonderful bi ke talk here in the twilight zone
well actually it depends on what version of the Bible you read sister
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:31-32, 34-36 KJV
my point is though look at what he’s saying before and after him that single line
“said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
He isn’t making then free first then they’ll keep his word he’s telling them to keep his word and then they’ll know the truth and be set free from serving sin
But according (it seems like ) to some of you guys no one can ever do that I til God specially enables them by making then a new person but only he oredestinested who he’s going to do thie for and o my those folks are enabled to hesr and believe and be saved ect
i honestly don’t know sister seems like another wonderful bi ke talk here in the twilight zone