Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?
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That's false.
I understand how you can interpret that to read as eternal conscious torment, but that's just your interpretation isn't it?
Facts are:
1. It doesn't say people are tormented forever in hell.
2. Doesn't say that they'll be tormented day and night forever. How many day and nights are we talking about? One, two, a thousand? Proper exegesis demands that we don't attach eternal conscious torment where none is stated.
3. The smoke rises forever. Doesn't that seem oddly specific? Again, just the smoke rises. That isn't even saying eternal torment. That's your private interpretation.
4. Numerous scriptures say only the righteous receive eternal life. I believe you know that so no need to quote them. The wicked will not live forever. Plain and simple.
John 3:16 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Those who don't believe in Jesus perish. Dead. Destroyed. Gone. Annihilated.
shall not perish
ἀπόληται (apolētai)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular
622. apollumi
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
I understand how you can interpret that to read as eternal conscious torment, but that's just your interpretation isn't it?
Facts are:
1. It doesn't say people are tormented forever in hell.
2. Doesn't say that they'll be tormented day and night forever. How many day and nights are we talking about? One, two, a thousand? Proper exegesis demands that we don't attach eternal conscious torment where none is stated.
3. The smoke rises forever. Doesn't that seem oddly specific? Again, just the smoke rises. That isn't even saying eternal torment. That's your private interpretation.
4. Numerous scriptures say only the righteous receive eternal life. I believe you know that so no need to quote them. The wicked will not live forever. Plain and simple.
John 3:16 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Those who don't believe in Jesus perish. Dead. Destroyed. Gone. Annihilated.
shall not perish
ἀπόληται (apolētai)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular
622. apollumi
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
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I do see your point.
I don't know why this is so difficult for me. Maybe because it is a belief that I have held "forever" (pun intended).
I really don't know why but I just can't let it go. It's definitely not because I want to believe that people will be tormented all throughout eternity. I seriously wished that everyone would be saved and no one would ever go to hell.
From what you, @ewq1938, @Aaron56, and @Magenta and others have shared it doesn't seem that there will be an eternal conscious torment taking place through out eternity. This is something that I am beginning to agree with you guys on.
However, I still have many questions about it.
You and some of the others have quoted scriptures about the devil being destroyed. Then we have scriptures saying that the devil, the false prophet, hell, and those not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire to be tortured day and night "forever".
So I'm back to the time frame again. Maybe forever doesn't equal eternity? Forever would still probably be a long, long, long time though, right?
What I'm saying is that the warnings would still be true...the pain and suffering would still be severe. Even if people were eventually annihilated, that doesn't mean that it would be just a quick toss in the flames and then it's over...would it?
I don't know why this is so difficult for me. Maybe because it is a belief that I have held "forever" (pun intended).
I really don't know why but I just can't let it go. It's definitely not because I want to believe that people will be tormented all throughout eternity. I seriously wished that everyone would be saved and no one would ever go to hell.
From what you, @ewq1938, @Aaron56, and @Magenta and others have shared it doesn't seem that there will be an eternal conscious torment taking place through out eternity. This is something that I am beginning to agree with you guys on.
However, I still have many questions about it.
You and some of the others have quoted scriptures about the devil being destroyed. Then we have scriptures saying that the devil, the false prophet, hell, and those not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire to be tortured day and night "forever".
So I'm back to the time frame again. Maybe forever doesn't equal eternity? Forever would still probably be a long, long, long time though, right?
What I'm saying is that the warnings would still be true...the pain and suffering would still be severe. Even if people were eventually annihilated, that doesn't mean that it would be just a quick toss in the flames and then it's over...would it?
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I was stuck in traffic today for ever! But I am using an intentional exaggeration to make a point 
Even the bible does same thing when talking about forever and eternal things:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here only the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever. The beast and false prophet are there but that isn't directly said to also apply to them but either way we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.
Even the bible does same thing when talking about forever and eternal things:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here only the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever. The beast and false prophet are there but that isn't directly said to also apply to them but either way we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.
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I believe that there is a place called Hell, because the Bible says there is. The real torment of hell is that it is a place of complete darkness where unconverted people who have rejected the Gospel of Christ are totally separated from God and all the good things He has created. If you have ever gone caving, and while in the middle of the cave all the torches have been turned off and you have been in total darkness where you can't see the hand in front of your face, then that is what Hell will be like. The Bible calls it the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Most of the torment will be that these souls had the chance to believe the Gospel and be saved, but they rejected it, and now they had to exist for the rest of eternity regretting their foolish decision.
Well, because you believe on Jesus you are saved and will never go to Hell. As far as being forever, this is what the Bible says. This is why Paul said, "Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men". We have to keep to what the Bible actually says, and not try and use our human reasoning to try and give theories about what God hasn't revealed to us.
I think that God has not shown us in Scripture about the total horrifying nature of Hell and that the horror lasts forever, because His mission is to present the Gospel which tells us that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross to take the guilt and punishment of our sin away from us, and if we decide to believe the Gospel, we will be saved and enjoy the good things of God for eternity.
I think that God has not shown us in Scripture about the total horrifying nature of Hell and that the horror lasts forever, because His mission is to present the Gospel which tells us that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross to take the guilt and punishment of our sin away from us, and if we decide to believe the Gospel, we will be saved and enjoy the good things of God for eternity.
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You must be careful to quote the Scripture correctly. It says that we should not be afraid of someone who can kill the body, but fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul. The Scripture does not say that God actually will destroy body and soul in the lake of fire. All it says is that God is more greatly to be feared than man because the consequences of rejecting the Gospel are much more fearful than someone just being able to kill the body.
Taking just one verse and ignoring other references about the eternal consequences for rejecting the Gospel of Christ leads one into error and non-Biblical conjectures. The Scripture says that at the last day resurrection some will be raised to eternity life with Christ and others will be raised to everlasting shame and perdition. So the word "everlasting" does not speak of total destruction to nothing of reprobate souls.
Taking just one verse and ignoring other references about the eternal consequences for rejecting the Gospel of Christ leads one into error and non-Biblical conjectures. The Scripture says that at the last day resurrection some will be raised to eternity life with Christ and others will be raised to everlasting shame and perdition. So the word "everlasting" does not speak of total destruction to nothing of reprobate souls.
The outer darkness is not described as hell. That is where those who are not allowed at the wedding supper are.
The outer darkness you refer to is three times mentioned in Matthew:
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the
darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 6:12
Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside,
into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 22:13
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 25:30
So please follow your recommendation of quoting Scripture correctly
Imagine being tossed outside to await your fate knowing those inside are
feasting and preparing for their life ever after, while you await your doom.
Weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth aplenty, I would think.
Hell gets tossed into the lake of fire.
The outer darkness you refer to is three times mentioned in Matthew:
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the
darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 6:12
Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside,
into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 22:13
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 25:30
So please follow your recommendation of quoting Scripture correctly
Imagine being tossed outside to await your fate knowing those inside are
feasting and preparing for their life ever after, while you await your doom.
Weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth aplenty, I would think.
Hell gets tossed into the lake of fire.
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The problem that most Annihiliatonists have is they perceive the word "dead" to mean not-existing or non-existant.
The Bible doesn't use the word in this way, for example when Jesus said let the dead bury the dead He did not mean non-existing people.
The annihilationism movement has gained ground recently because of how soft and sensitive people are and they cannot fathom and eternal torment for someone who was born to lets say abusive parents and got crippled later on in life and never got saved. This is because they are not looking at it from God's point of view where one sin is too many, we need Jesus' blood to redeem us, if no blood, no forgiveness, and even one sin is too many.
They get people into their belief system by trying to appeal to people's sense of mercy and use out of context proof texts which are talking about something entirely different to "prove" their case. Or they give you a false definition of a word like apollumi to mean nothing except for destruction, ceasing to exist. Well, Jesus spoke of lost [apollumi] sheep, who He came to seek, and those apollumi sheep were alive, and definately existing.
The verses they like to twist are things like "wicked shall be no more" and the verses that talk about what happened to people in Sodom and Gomorrah and usually they go to Old Testament verses.
IF you notice, the verses they use are usually talking about the FIRST DEATH, so yes, that fire and brimstone for Sodom and Gomorrah was the FIRST DEATH, but the second death still awaits. Yes, the wicked shall be rooted out of the earth, but thats not all.
Matthew 11:24 says it SHALL BE (future) more tolerable for SODOM on this day of judgment <- Meaning they have not yet experienced that second death, they are in hell/Hades right now waiting for the resurrection after which they are cast into the lake of fire (the second death)
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
I have heard annihilationists twist Rev 14:11 by saying its just the smoke of their torment that rises forever, not that they are tormented, well, the verse says NO REST day nor night.
Get real, if we dismiss the lake of fire for how serious it is, it has negative consequences on evangelism. Unless you are preaching the Jehovah's witness gospel of no salvation.
The Bible doesn't use the word in this way, for example when Jesus said let the dead bury the dead He did not mean non-existing people.
The annihilationism movement has gained ground recently because of how soft and sensitive people are and they cannot fathom and eternal torment for someone who was born to lets say abusive parents and got crippled later on in life and never got saved. This is because they are not looking at it from God's point of view where one sin is too many, we need Jesus' blood to redeem us, if no blood, no forgiveness, and even one sin is too many.
They get people into their belief system by trying to appeal to people's sense of mercy and use out of context proof texts which are talking about something entirely different to "prove" their case. Or they give you a false definition of a word like apollumi to mean nothing except for destruction, ceasing to exist. Well, Jesus spoke of lost [apollumi] sheep, who He came to seek, and those apollumi sheep were alive, and definately existing.
The verses they like to twist are things like "wicked shall be no more" and the verses that talk about what happened to people in Sodom and Gomorrah and usually they go to Old Testament verses.
IF you notice, the verses they use are usually talking about the FIRST DEATH, so yes, that fire and brimstone for Sodom and Gomorrah was the FIRST DEATH, but the second death still awaits. Yes, the wicked shall be rooted out of the earth, but thats not all.
Matthew 11:24 says it SHALL BE (future) more tolerable for SODOM on this day of judgment <- Meaning they have not yet experienced that second death, they are in hell/Hades right now waiting for the resurrection after which they are cast into the lake of fire (the second death)
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
I have heard annihilationists twist Rev 14:11 by saying its just the smoke of their torment that rises forever, not that they are tormented, well, the verse says NO REST day nor night.
Get real, if we dismiss the lake of fire for how serious it is, it has negative consequences on evangelism. Unless you are preaching the Jehovah's witness gospel of no salvation.
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Honestly I don't think it's accurate that annihilationists are looking for ways to circumvent the written Word to prop up a "doctrine of men."
The Bible literally says that the unrighteous do not receive eternal life, but instead perish. Only those who believe in God's Son Jesus have eternal life. (John 3:16)
Beginning of this year I was in the camp that people suffer forever in hell without the possibility of relief or extermination. I held that view for a long time. I didn't really study it until recently because I took for granted and trusted that people like you who support eternal torment were right. After all, eternal life in hell is a mainstream belief in Christianity.
Can well-meaning Christians hold false doctrines? Yes, and I'll be the first to admit that if I see I am wrong I'll change my view asap.
After actually looking at the many verses in the Bible about hell, I can't find the support that eternal torment requires. I've come here, discussed this at length with many Christians, dug deeper, looked harder, and prayed more.
Eternal torment for those in hell is not directly stated or implied in the Bible. I'm 100% certain of this.
The Bible literally says that the unrighteous do not receive eternal life, but instead perish. Only those who believe in God's Son Jesus have eternal life. (John 3:16)
Beginning of this year I was in the camp that people suffer forever in hell without the possibility of relief or extermination. I held that view for a long time. I didn't really study it until recently because I took for granted and trusted that people like you who support eternal torment were right. After all, eternal life in hell is a mainstream belief in Christianity.
Can well-meaning Christians hold false doctrines? Yes, and I'll be the first to admit that if I see I am wrong I'll change my view asap.
After actually looking at the many verses in the Bible about hell, I can't find the support that eternal torment requires. I've come here, discussed this at length with many Christians, dug deeper, looked harder, and prayed more.
Eternal torment for those in hell is not directly stated or implied in the Bible. I'm 100% certain of this.
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It doesn't say what you are saying it says. I've gone over these verses numerous times in this thread already.
The Bible doesn't contradict itself, i.e., people don't perish, get destroyed, then experience a second death while at the same time living forever in hell. That much is certain. So the Bible is correct and we agree there I assume.
So how do you reconcile eternal living torment with perishing in hell and the second death in the Lake of Fire?
The Bible doesn't contradict itself, i.e., people don't perish, get destroyed, then experience a second death while at the same time living forever in hell. That much is certain. So the Bible is correct and we agree there I assume.
So how do you reconcile eternal living torment with perishing in hell and the second death in the Lake of Fire?
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Adressed this specific thing in my post.
The word perish or destroy does not mean ceases to exist either, that specific word apollumi....
I wrote:
"Or they give you a false definition of a word like apollumi to mean nothing except for destruction, ceasing to exist. Well, Jesus spoke of lost [apollumi] sheep, who He came to seek, and those apollumi sheep were alive, and definately existing. "
Which is exactly what you did there, just a bare bones well you know, perish means dead so they gone....
Were the LOST (apollumi) sheep dead, non-existant? No.
Perish does not mean cease to exist.
You guys unknowingly are telling atheists exactly what they want to hear. "Oh so I can just sin freely, and then God will resurrect me and kill me again? NICE!"
The word perish or destroy does not mean ceases to exist either, that specific word apollumi....
I wrote:
"Or they give you a false definition of a word like apollumi to mean nothing except for destruction, ceasing to exist. Well, Jesus spoke of lost [apollumi] sheep, who He came to seek, and those apollumi sheep were alive, and definately existing. "
Which is exactly what you did there, just a bare bones well you know, perish means dead so they gone....
Were the LOST (apollumi) sheep dead, non-existant? No.
Perish does not mean cease to exist.
You guys unknowingly are telling atheists exactly what they want to hear. "Oh so I can just sin freely, and then God will resurrect me and kill me again? NICE!"
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That doesn't make sense either because Jesus wasn't referring to bodily death when He referenced the "lost sheep of Israel" or those that "perish" who do not believe in Him. This is easily verifiable since both believers and unbelievers will die a bodily death.
The lost sheep of Israel are spiritually dead and those who do not believe in Jesus are spiritually dead. The eternal life that those who believe in Jesus enjoy is not physical immortality, but rather spiritual eternal life.
The G622 word apollumi (kill, destroy, I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain) applies comfortably and adequately to the fate of the lost sheep of Israel and unbelievers living today: they'll perish without Christ.
The lost sheep of Israel are spiritually dead and those who do not believe in Jesus are spiritually dead. The eternal life that those who believe in Jesus enjoy is not physical immortality, but rather spiritual eternal life.
The G622 word apollumi (kill, destroy, I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain) applies comfortably and adequately to the fate of the lost sheep of Israel and unbelievers living today: they'll perish without Christ.
looking like an angel of light proves they can change appearance. I forget the name of the prophet on the jackass who could not even see the angel with a sword. Also, in I cor 11 one can not see the angels.
I also produced the text where God says angels are like fire.
Exodus 3 has an angel as the source of fire in the burning bush.
I also produced the text where God says angels are like fire.
Exodus 3 has an angel as the source of fire in the burning bush.
I was stuck in traffic today for ever! But I am using an intentional exaggeration to make a point
Even the bible does same thing when talking about forever and eternal things:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here only the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever. The beast and false prophet are there but that isn't directly said to also apply to them but either way we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.
Even the bible does same thing when talking about forever and eternal things:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here only the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever. The beast and false prophet are there but that isn't directly said to also apply to them but either way we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.