What do we mean by 'the church'

[Gideon300]

'The church' needs to get back to the truth.

'The church' needs to stop being greedy.

'The church' is watered down.


What are we talking about when we say 'the church'?

Are you talking about the local church as an institution?

Or are you meaning all believers currently alive?

Thing is.. they are not both 'the church '!

I contend "the church' is always local and all believers living now.. is part of the Kingdom of God and Family of God, but not 'the church'

Matthew 18.. context is of a church that can be spoken to.. got to be local.

When Jesus talks of building His church.. Hes referring to continuing to build His churches He started with His His disciples.

The letters in the NT are to local churches. Either one in particular or a group of churches plural.

So .. where is this church of every believer? I dont find it in scripture.

The entity of every believer assembling as a church does eventually happen. That is in scripture.. but it's in prospect

Where in scripture is a church of every believer for now?

There is the church universal. Lord Jesus is building it. (Matthew 16:18). I don't know why you assume that Lord Jesus is speaking about churches plural.

The local church is obvious- based on locality. The church is all those who are born again. For some reason that I do not understand, unbelievers are welcomed in as if they were believers. We are meant to be living stones in a living temple that Lord Jesus is building.

From God's point of view, the work of Christ is complete. From our point of view, there is a great deal to do. God intends for the church to conform to what Christ has already achieved.

The universal church exists because we are all one in Christ Jesus. I traveled a lot in my first few years as a believer. I met Christians in Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, The Philippines and Hawaii. I had a connection with all the believers in those places. It is spiritual, not cultural.

The best understanding of the church that I've read is Watchman Nee's, "The Normal Christian Church". It should be compulsory reading for anyone who aspires to leadership in the church. It's not a lot like the modern church.

 

[Gideon300]

According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.

Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.

I agree absolutely that the Reformation did not go far enough. I do not believe that Orthodoxy is the true church. I don't consider Roman Catholicism any more than a worldly organisation with religious overtones. I have nothing against individual Catholics. I've met some who love Jesus with all their hearts.

The true church is founded on Christ and is being built by Christ. All who are born again are members. Denominational distinctions are meaningless in heaven.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is the church universal. Lord Jesus is building it. (Matthew 16:18). I don't know why you assume that Lord Jesus is speaking about churches plural.

The local church is obvious- based on locality. The church is all those who are born again. For some reason that I do not understand, unbelievers are welcomed in as if they were believers. We are meant to be living stones in a living temple that Lord Jesus is building.

From God's point of view, the work of Christ is complete. From our point of view, there is a great deal to do. God intends for the church to conform to what Christ has already achieved.

The universal church exists because we are all one in Christ Jesus. I traveled a lot in my first few years as a believer. I met Christians in Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, The Philippines and Hawaii. I had a connection with all the believers in those places. It is spiritual, not cultural.

The best understanding of the church that I've read is Watchman Nee's, "The Normal Christian Church". It should be compulsory reading for anyone who aspires to leadership in the church. It's not a lot like the modern church.

amen he has set out a very clear path and offered to quicken us and make us able , we stop ourselves through disbelief when we hear what we don’t want to hear we tend to reject it and those are the things that change our inner issues that stop us from taking up the cross of glory and following the Lord home along the path he set ahead of us

but the great part is he promised to make us strong enough and give us the right eill and inderstandkng through belief but we tend to only want what requires nothing from us and everything places on him who’s already done everything tommake us able and earned us about rejecting it

“Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭36:25-27‬ ‭

but I’m noticing when many see it they don’t really want to believe it’s true because it means then they will have to change some things and step out of the comfort of the worlds boat

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[shittim]

According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.

Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.

According to the Bible, which ought to be our source and is for the true believer, We are to seek Holy Spirit guidance for every thought, word, and deed. Not the "religious" whom Jesus Himself guided us to reject and who ended up crucifying Him.

 

[tanakh]

The "ecclesia" is the body of believers, as in the early church before constantine twisted it into an earthly organization built in the model of Roman government.
Christ is the head of His church, not some dude or woman in a fish hat.

According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.

Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.

According to the Bible, which ought to be our source and is for the true believer, We are to seek Holy Spirit guidance for every thought, word, and deed. Not the "religious" whom Jesus Himself guided us to reject and who ended up crucifying Him.

I have just explained to my limited knowledge of what I know about the history of the Church.
To know what that history explains I suggest you read the history of the Church by Eusebios
and the History of the Jews by Josephus

 

[Icedaisey]

'The church' needs to get back to the truth.

'The church' needs to stop being greedy.

'The church' is watered down.


What are we talking about when we say 'the church'?

Are you talking about the local church as an institution?

Or are you meaning all believers currently alive?

Thing is.. they are not both 'the church '!

I contend "the church' is always local and all believers living now.. is part of the Kingdom of God and Family of God, but not 'the church'

Matthew 18.. context is of a church that can be spoken to.. got to be local.

When Jesus talks of building His church.. Hes referring to continuing to build His churches He started with His His disciples.

The letters in the NT are to local churches. Either one in particular or a group of churches plural.

So .. where is this church of every believer? I dont find it in scripture.

The entity of every believer assembling as a church does eventually happen. That is in scripture.. but it's in prospect

Where in scripture is a church of every believer for now?

The church, in Greek, ekklesia , meaning out-calling, or in our case, the called out ones. The elect of God.
Therefore, the church is we who are the holy spirit filled faithful in Christ. And let the ekklesia say, "Amen!"

 

[shittim]

According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.

Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.



I have just explained to my limited knowledge of what I know about the history of the Church.
To know what that history explains I suggest you read the history of the Church by Eusebios
and the History of the Jews by Josephus

Thats nice, but I am not really interested in the past, everything with Christi is now and into the future.

 

[wattie]

The church, in Greek, ekklesia , meaning out-calling, or in our case, the called out ones. The elect of God.
Therefore, the church is we who are the holy spirit filled faithful in Christ. And let the ekklesia say, "Amen!"

Called out.. to an ecclessia = called out from an abode to a popular meeting, gathering.

For a New Testament church.. called out to meet as a saved, baptized group to worship Jesus.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

According to the Bible, which ought to be our source and is for the true believer, We are to seek Holy Spirit guidance for every thought, word, and deed. Not the "religious" whom Jesus Himself guided us to reject and who ended up crucifying Him.

and how do we hear the holy spirit ? I mean practically how do we actually hear his voice ?

 

[shittim]

In John 16 jesus teaches this

 

[tanakh]

Thats nice, but I am not really interested in the past, everything with Christi is now and into the future.

I just tried to explain how we arrived at ''Now'' as far as the world wide Church is concerned and
what a mess its in.

 

[shittim]

I appreciate your effort, I don't see need to know how we created the mess, we need to keep our eyes stayed on the Savior.
I know you love the Lord, were it necessary to divine the root of the problem we would go back to the fall in Genesis, wehere we walked in one on one relatiohsip before and now He desires each of us to do so as we have the indwelling.
All the garbage in between is kind of moot.
best wishes

 

[Icedaisey]

Called out.. to an ecclessia = called out from an abode to a popular meeting, gathering.

For a New Testament church.. called out to meet as a saved, baptized group to worship Jesus.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/ekklesia.html

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In John 16 jesus teaches this

John 16 ? How has it taught you tangibly how do you know the holy spirits word and voice ?

 

[listenyoumustAll]

Zion.

 

[wattie]

From Arthur Pink: Churches of God

Now the kind of church which is emphasized in the New Testament is neither invisible nor universal; but instead, visible and local. The Greek word for “church” is ecclesia, and those who know anything of that language are agreed that the word signifies “An Assembly.” Now an “assembly” is a company of people who actually assemble. If they never “assemble,” then it is a misuse of language to call them “an Assembly.” Therefore, as all of God’s people never have yet assembled together, there is today no “universal Church” or “Assembly.” That “Church” is yet future; as yet it has no concrete or corporate existence.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Therefore, as all of God’s people never have yet assembled together, there is today no “universal Church” or “Assembly.” That “Church” is yet future; as yet it has no concrete or corporate existence.

This is not only very disingenuous but also very misleading. While the word church does mean "assembly" it also means "called out ones". In Scripture the Body of Christ is called "the Church". This is an INVISIBLE spiritual entity consisting of all the true children of God (regardless of denomination). Christ is the invisible Head of this Body.

 

[wattie]

This is not only very disingenuous but also very misleading. While the word church does mean "assembly" it also means "called out ones". In Scripture the Body of Christ is called "the Church". This is an INVISIBLE spiritual entity consisting of all the true children of God (regardless of denomination). Christ is the invisible Head of the Church.

Well okay, so what then do you do with 1 Corinthians 12, where the church at Corinth is called the body of Christ?


What about Matthew 16:18, where references to church are in a local sense 21 times and then this time it is supposed to be universal?

That's odds of 21 times to 1 that its meaning is local. Why would Jesus initially refer to the church in the universal sense, and then from there only local.

And then if course Jesus saying He will build His church.. this us future tense. If this includes all believers then Old Testament saints would be part of it, but they are not.

There is a whole lot more to this in scripture also.

Surely the universal entity is in The Family of God rather than the body of Christ.

 

[Marilyn]

Called out.. to an ecclessia = called out from an abode to a popular meeting, gathering.

For a New Testament church.. called out to meet as a saved, baptized group to worship Jesus.

Hi wattie,

The `ekklesia` the Church, the Body of Christ, are the called out ones - called out from Israel and the nations to be a new man. (Eph. 1: 23, & 2: 15) Israel is also an `ekklesia,` called out from the nations.

It is the Holy Spirit that `sets` the members in place, not man & his meetings. (1 Cor. 12: 18) Remember that the Lord said that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, then He is there in the midst. (Matt. 18: 20)

 

[wattie]

Hi wattie,

The `ekklesia` the Church, the Body of Christ, are the called out ones - called out from Israel and the nations to be a new man. (Eph. 1: 23, & 2: 15) Israel is also an `ekklesia,` called out from the nations.

It is the Holy Spirit that `sets` the members in place, not man & his meetings. (1 Cor. 12: 18) Remember that the Lord said that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, then He is there in the midst. (Matt. 18: 20)

Called out after already being eternally saved, from their homes,
to a congregated body of believers as one of Christs NT assemblies. 😎

Matthew 18.. yes, where two or three are gathered.. there I am with them.

That's in the context of resolving sin issues in a local church.

An updated way that was started with Israel gathered to resolve disputes.

It's still talking local church.