What Changed?

[Rufus]

Here's another post I wrote back in April re Jn 3:16:

Amen!
But there is the literal Words from God and the Inspired words from man's understanding from God.
And John understood Jesus to be saying the "Universe" in John 3:16 when they came from the mouth of Jesus.

So, you seem to be implying that just the "inspired words of God" could be fallible since man's understanding is fallible, correct?
But at the same time, how did the "literal words from God" get on paper: Did the Holy Spirit bypass human agency and write those on parchment directly with his finger or did those literal words also come through the medium of God's apostles and prophets?

OY VEY!!!

Now, "world" in Jn 3:16 has numerous meanings. Universe doesn't fit the context since there is no biblical record that the sons of men (for whom Christ died) live anywhere other than on this little planet. Besides, this the term "kosmos" has a more narrow meaning:

kosmos

NT:2889 kosmos (kos'-mos); probably from the base of NT:2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]):

KJV - adorning, world.

Notice at the very end in brackets "morally". (Some translators also say spiritually.) And also notice that this term is used in the wide or narrow sense. And this moral/spiritual application makes perfectly good sense because Spiritually or Morally there are only TWO kinds of people in this world. In Jn 3:16, it's used in the narrow sense to denote who God loves -- which cannot be sinners, according to numerous scripture. Therefore, who God loves in this passage are all the "whoevers" of this world who come to believe on his His Son. The "whosoever" qualifies the extent of God's love. (This is why when I share the Gospel, I give the straight biblical skinny on who God loves and died for: All those who come to believe on His Son and repent or their sins.)

But in Jn 17:9, we have the opposite scenario. Jesus omitted the "world" from his prayer because he prayed only for the two groups of elect he specifically mentioned in the chapter. "World" in this passage, therefore, is used in the negative sense and denotes the world of non-elect unbelievers.

Also, as stated previously, the nation Israel itself sets the precedent for this kind of usage for the term "world", since Paul tell us in Rom 9 that there are two distinct groups of Israelites -- Israel according to the flesh (mere physical lineage) and spiritual Israel according to the Promise.

Jesus tells us in the Good Shepherd discourse that he laid down his life for his sheep (Jn 10:15), making no mention of the goats in this world; but instead telling us elsewhere that the day would come when he would judge and condemn the goats of this world (Mat 25:31-43). He also mentions two flocks of sheep (Israel according to the Promise) and the elect Gentiles who would be brought in to join the Jewish flock, so that the two flocks will become one (Jn 10:16).

Also, at the Last Supper, Jesus himself limited the extent of his atoning work's application to just "you" or "many" (Mat 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 22:20). Jesus had only one group in mind, and it was not the entire world in the distributive sense.

In Gal 3:22 Paul tells us that "the whole world" is a prisoner of sin; yet this can't be true in the distributive sense since Paul teaches us elsewhere that sin shall not be a master over us (Rom 6:14. And Jesus himself said he would set his people free and the Truth would also set his disciples free (Jn 8:32, 36). John also taught that no one born of God can live a lifestyle of sin (1Jn 3:9). So again, "whole world" is being used to denote the world of unbelievers.

In fact, John tells us in 1Jn 5:19 the "whole world" lies under the power of the evil one; yet this cannot be true in the distributive sense since the apostle said earlier that "no one born of God can keep on sinning" (1Jn 3:9). Or did John contradict himself? Or maybe 1 John isn't divinely inspired? Or do we just have another situation here where "whole world" is used in a narrow sense to denote the ungodly world of unbelievers?

To sum up, all these metaphors and groups can be traced back to their origin in Gen 3:15, wherein God immediately after the Fall soverignly decreed (without consulting with any human being, or getting any human's permission) that from now on there would be two distinct moral/spiritual groups of people in this world: The godly seed of the Woman and the ungodly seed of the Serpent (Gen 3:15). There is no third seed. (And the First Adam certainly didn't descend from Eve, did he!?) So, from the very beginning, not only did we have the divine decree, but we had a "sheep" and a "goat" for our first parents! (And just as an interesting aside, a goat's head is a satanic symbol, is it not!?)

Again, scripture is self-interpreting to those who are open to seeing or hearing what it plainly says. Not only is scripture self-interpreting but it is internally consistent with itself, which if what we should expect since God cannot lie. But this is certainly not true of the Non-Reformed traditions of the Gospel, which produce so many contradictions they virtually defy counting!

 

[Magenta]

God has certainly blessed you!!

Yes, they have no excuse, Romans 1 makes that quite clear.. They know what they are doing.
and always want to blame us,, Well that will not get them very far on judgment day..

I am glad God worked on me, to humble me 40 years ago. Although I had to pray about 30 times
before I finally understand what it was all about, and just sat and talked with God.. and He saved me..

Romans 1:20-21
Designed today; first time posting. Thank you for the inspiration! .

 

[Rufus]

We've looked at Jn 3:16, thus far, from a few perspectives: from how language experts define, "kosmos", from a word usage angle, from Johannine theology and how John himself used the term "world", from the hermeneutical principle of Original Audience (what writers meant and how their original audience would have understood them) ,from how Jesus viewed the world, from how He limited his atonement to only the Father's elect, from how he further limited his atonement to his Father's covenant people and from Exodus typology. Next, I'm going to tackle Jn 3:16 in its more immediate context to expose the error of the universal understanding of the term "world". But before I do that, I would be remiss to not very briefly show everyone how the larger context of the entire bible also directly contradicts the universal use of the term "world when speaking of God's love. Does God really love each and every person in the world? John Gill answered this question once when he wrote:

All men are not the objects of God's love, only a special people, whom he has chosen in Christ; for whom he has given his Son, when they were sinners and enemies; whom he quickens and calls by his grace, justifies, pardons, and accepts in Christ; and whom he causes to love him; these he loves with an everlasting and unchangeable love, and in a free and sovereign way, without any regard to any motive or condition in them. (John Gill, The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible, Commentary on Hebrews 12:6, Source)

I will simply cite several passages to save time and space that teach God's contempt or hatred or loathing toward sinners. Everyone can use their "free" will to look up the passages or not: Lev 26:30; Deut 25:16; Job 12:21-22; Ps 5:5-6; 11:5; 15:1-5; 73:18-20; 95:10-11; 106:40; 119:113; Prov 3:32; 6:16-19; Jer 16:5; Lam 2:6-7; Hos 9:15; Dan 12:2; Nah 1:14; Mal 1:2-3; Rom 9:13, etc.

And the class of scriptures above does not include the imprecatory Psalms that speak to the righteous person's attitudue toward openly hostlile sinners. Nor will I include the large class of scriptures that teach that God's love is conditional. In short, when Jn 3:16 is understood to be speaking in the distributive sense, the interpretor is faced with a large number of contradictions throughout the bible that touch on multiple classes of scriptures. Now on to the immediate topic at hand which is Jn 3:16 itself, which I'll quote in two parts.

John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
NIV

The Reformed Tradition of the Faith has rightly reasoned that if God sent his Son into the world to actually, truly and really atone for the sins of all in the distributive sense, then it stands to reason that each and ervery person in the world is unconditionally saved by shed blood of Christ. And v.17 above bears out the truth to this kind of conclusion. Note carefully, please, what v.17 does not say, but what various Non-Reformed traditions do say to contradict the verse. The text does not say that God sent his Son in to the world to:

a.) make salvation available to all men;
b.) give evryone in the world the opportunity to be saved;
c.) become the potential Savior of all mankind;
d.) make salvation possible for all men

Rather, the text says that the Father's intention for the Son was that the world would [literally] be saved through Him.
Now, of course, the Evangelical Church at large does not believe in an unconditional Universal atonement. And it's right here that the soft underbelly of Non-Reformed traditions becomes shamelessly exposed for what it is! NR traditions will appeal to v. 18 to show that there is a conditon to the atonement, i.e. Faith! The atonement alone is not sufficient to save. A believer's faith must be added to it. A sinner must first choose to believe the Gospel and repent...THEN God can save by his Son's atoning work. But the problem with this kind of rebuttal is that the term "world" in v.17 is now no longer used in the same unlimited, unconditonal sense that it was used in v. 16! The NR traditions have switched horses im mid-stream! The NR folks, by adding the condition of faith, are now unwittingly using "world" in v.17 in a very different sense, that is to say, in a limited, conditional, sense. According to NR traditions, God loves the world in an unlimited, uncondtional sense but literally (as oppposed to hypothetically) saves the world strictly in a limited, conditional sense. Remember: When an NR tradition says that Christ atoned for the sins of each and every person in the world, it means in at least one of the four hypothetical ways listed in the previous paragraph, even though v.17 doesn't say any of those things.

The Reformed Tradition avoids this glaring inconsistency. We say that God's love in v.16 is limited/conditonal, as well as Christ's atonement, quantitatively speaking, in v. 17. And those of us who subscribe to New Covenant Theology say the same thing even though most NCT students hold to an unconditional, unilteral NC. How can we logically and consistently do this? We can because ultimately God fulfills his own unilateral covenant since he also provides the means (faith and repentance) to achieve his end. And God's election of his chosen, covenant people is Unconditonal because fallen man is totallty devoid and destitute of any spiritual merit. God sovereignly chooses who he will save based solely on the merits of Christ, who is the Federal Head of all God's chosen, covenant people. Here's the last portion of the immediate context I want to share:

John 3:19-21
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men [people] loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
NIV

We find more inconsistency with NR traditions with this passage as well. Everlasting Grace recently told us that the "world" in Jn 3:16 should be understood as the fallen world system under the control of Satan. So, at least his understanding of "men" or "people" in v.19 would very likely be in the distributive sense; gpt God sent His Son into the world to save all all lost people held captive to Satan's will; but that, again, unwittingly changes the the unlimted/universal sense to the term "world" in the same verse! But even here he shot himself in the foot! Doesn't God love believers and unbelievers alike!? Also, not everyone in the world is held prisoner or captive to the Prince of Darkness. God has always had a remnant of true believers in this world. Therefore, "men/people" should rightly be understood in the limited sense, as well as the term "world", since the focus in the text are lost people. Once again, the correct, biblical understanding of the term "world" by Reformed folks present no inconsistencies in scripture whatsoever.

 

[PaulThomson]

PT has previously twisted Mat 11:27 so out of shape, the verse no longer says what it does. He didn't care for the fact that Jesus gets to decide who lives and who doesn't. I guess he thought that was "unfair".

Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus is speaking to disciples before the cross and resurrection. The verse says that everything that is being given to Jesus to say and do at THAT time is from the Father. The verse also says no one except the Father knows the Son at THAT time. The verse also says that no one except the Son at THAT time knows the Father, but only those to whom Jesus wills at THAT time to reveal the Father.

Are you reading more into the text than it says?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So once again, the troll Calvinist has proved he is a deceiver and a false accuser. I knew he was going to call me an arminian, Because sadly to many in this argument between two views. You are one or the other. You can not look at it any other way. Your either for me or against me, and if your against me, no matter what you believe, your on the other side.

But that is not even the point, He just spend a lot of time trying to prove world in John 3 does not mean :world”

Yet once again, He failed utterly to respond to the one point of John 3 which would prove him in error. Because you see, even if world could be interpreted in any other way, it does not mean it has to. We need Context to help us prove the point

so here we go. Let’s get context And Show @Rufus the error in his ways

1. Is the calvinist view of a man being born again BEFORE faith true? Or are we born again AFTer we have faith?
2. Does the world mean anything other than the word “world” Does it mean “Elect” or a group of people?

first. What is the context of John 3.

1. Jesus said, You must be born again. If you want to see the kingdom of God.

on this point, I believe @Rufus and I totally agree, We are dead in trespasses and sin, We are dead just by being “in Adam” We are separated from God. There is a Barrier between us and God, and if that barrier is not broken, We will be eternally separated from God. So we who are dead, must be made alive! again, I think we both agree this must happen, Where we disagree is when this happens

2. Nicodemus is confused. And thinks Jesus is speaking of being physically born again, so he asks if he must enter his mothers womb again.

3. Jesus tell him (and us) WHAT being born Again means

unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

A. Water and spirit. Sadly we have those who think this means water baptism, Yet Jesus never mentions baptism once. Jesus is speaking about two births. The birth of Water or physical birth (that which is born of flesh is flesh) and that birth of the spirit which is spiritual birth (that which is born of spirit is spirit

B. This spiritual birth is the second birth. Hence what Jesus is literally saying is we must be reborn, or born a second time (born again) if we want to see the kingdom of God.

C. This spiritual birth is not something we feel. Nor do we even know where it comes from, But it happens all the same.

4. Nicodemus, Still does not understand, so he asks, How can these things be (He basically asks Jesus “How do we become born again”

Now here is where we get down to the meat and bones. And we have To make a choice or two

1. Look at different views. Study the reformed view. The catholic view. The baptist view etc etc.. And chose which one we think fits our belief better? (which one we agree with or which one we think fits the rest of scripture the best)

2. Just read the passage, and follow along what is being said, and see what it really says, setting aside our own personal beliefs and just let God talk to us. I learned along time ago this is sometimes the best. While it is good to get other views. Sometimes just reading the passage will help you break some of your own misgivings, and allow you to test what you have been taught,, I found out by doing this, many of the things I trusted was true because of what I was taught growing up. Are not really true, and I had to break my own pride and come to the realization we can not always trust those who are our teachers. (We must not become man followers. But test each spirit)

So let’s just try number 2. Set everything aside, and determine, what did Jesus say? what is his answer? How are we born again, and When does it happen?

So in order for this not to be too long. Let’s break this down into another post. And look at the rest of Jesus and Nicodemus conversation to determine what Jesus said.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Part 2. How and when are we born again.

As shown above, Jesus was having a discussion with Nicodemus on what ot means to be Born again, a requirment according to jesus, somethign that must happen if we are to enter the kingdom of God (be saved)

So in this post. I just want to focus on Jesus answer

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Interestingly enough. Jesus calls the teacher out. And lets him know. He should already know these things.. Being a teacher, he should not only knw them, but he should be teaching them himself.

Now remember, Nicodemus was a pharisee of pharisees, A religious leader of the Jews (To bring this into perspective, this would be the equivalent of a Church elder, a pastor. A bishop or a church leader, which brings me to my first point, Just because we have someone who is a leader or elder of a church, does not mean he understands the things of God. We should NEVER just blindly follow anyone in all areas, because even if they get a lot right, they could be wrong in some area, and as shown here, this area is a very important one, and here a church leader did not understand it.. nor could he teach it


11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus could have easily right here blown him off. Here is a leader of the church (the ekklesia or gathering) of the OT, the jewish faith, which God himself instituted when he handed moses the law and then spoke through the prophets) that did not understand the basic element of what it takes to become a true child of God. To enter into a true relationship with the Father!

Instead. Jesus once again shows the character of God. He shows true love and compassion for even this person who is part of a group of people jesus knows will become his enemy over the next few years.

In doing so. Jesus gives Nicodemus what we today call the Gospel. The message of salvation, the message of the cross.

He first needs to get his attention. If I tell you earthy things and you do not understand, how will you understand if I tell you spiritual things,, in other words. focus on what I am about to say.

1. The son of man came down from heaven. Here i am. What did I come in the first place? (Remember, as a jew, he thought the messiah would come to free them from the power of rome (physical things) but jesus needs him to know. He needs freed from something even more serious (Spiritual death) If he does not rescue us from this spiritual issue, being freed from the physical issue does not even matter, because you will still be dead.

2. Jesus, “knowing that Nicodemus is a teacher of the Torah and knows the word well” takes him back to an OT story, he does this to help Nicodemus see what he is about to tell him in a way he probably would not understand any way, He is going to use what we call a “Type” to explain a spiritual reality in a way that we can understand, which is what the Law was given for. As Paul tells us in Gal 3. The law was a tutor. To bring us to Christ.

This is a story Nicodemus would have know well. And jesus is going to use this story to explain to him the spiritual truth of what Jesus was speaking about. “How to become born again)

Since this post is too long, will break it up again here as I feel this is a good breaking point. So we can finish with the main point in one post.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Part 3, the conclusion

Jesus will finish up by using a type in the OT that nicodemus, as a teacher of the law. Would understand and know well

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,

here jesus uses a few short words. But this will open up a huge understanding for Nicodemus who would have been instantly taken back to when this happened (i have had this happen many times, i am sure we all have)

so to help. Lets go back ourselves (In case there are some who are reading this who do not know the story.

For those who want to follow along, We find this story in Numbers 21.

To set the stage, The lord had just given Israel a great victory. He just defeated the Canaanite’s and destroyed a bunch of their cities. So Israel continued on, Then went into the wilderness, to stay away from the Land of Edom. Sadly, The children of Israel once again, showed their unbelief in God. They complained, they Spoke out again God and Moses.

So God sent serpents to them, and they could not get around them, they started to bite the people and many of the were dying, so once again, they cried out to God. And begged moses to ask God to take the serpents away, Which moses did. But God sent a different answer. He would not take away the cause of this death, but he would offer a solution, so that they may live inspite of the venom that was killing them (they were literally dead men and women walking)

Here is Gods answer:

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Such a short story. But a HUGE spiritual impact will be brought forth

1. God has Moses make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole (A type of Christ)
2. When people were bit. They were in effect dead. If they wanted to live (be reborn) they could continue to try to save themselves. Or they could trust in Gods provision, and just “look in faith to the serpent on the pole”
3. Those who did although they were dead, lived (they were in effect born again)
4. Those who did not in unbelief, remain condemned in the judgment of God in which he sent because of their rebellion

the point is, the serpent was not just sent to save those who lived, it was sent to save ANYONE who would believe, and just look at the serpent as god commanded them to.

The whole congregation of Isreal (the world) was guilty, and God sent something to save them all (a type of Christ) He who believe was saved, he who did not remained judged.

This will help Nicodemus, and us, see the rest of what Jesus said, and help us understand this spiritual truth of which the fiery serpent was a “type” or “symbol” to help explain this spiritual truth


even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

So Jesus starts out by saying in like manner (to fill fill the type) the son of man must also be lifted up.. why?

15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now let’s do what Nicodemus owuld have done, Open our minds. Look at the type and the fulfiment of the bronze serpent, and the son of man, both of whom would hang on a pole to save people.

1. Just like in Moses day, everyone was judged, God sent the serpents in judgment because of Israel sins. We today are judged, our judgment is spiritual death, Again, The wage of sin is death, in adam all die. The curse of the law (not keeping it perfectly) was death.

2. Just like in Moses day, The one hanging on the pole is capable of saving everyone who has been judged, it was not just sent for a group f people. But the whole of the nation of Israel (or in our case. The whole of the world. For ALL have sinned, and fall short)

3. Just like in moses day, Whoever in faith looks to the cross will be saved. Whoever in unbelief continues to reject Gods answer. Will end up suffering the judgment imposed By God on their sin (spiritual death) and remain in this condemned state

Jesus finishes it off with this point. He was not sent to judge the world (the bronze serpent was not sent to Judge Israel) he was sent so the world may be saved (as the bronze serpent was sent so that the children of Israel could be saved)

he who believes is not condemned, (he will live, Jesus calls this life “eternal” in that as he said, they will never die. This salvation in this case is eternal. The judgment for their rebellion has been removed, and they are forever saved.

Who who remains in unbelief (refuses to look to the cross in open rebellion) will remain condemned, and if they do not repent before they leave this earth, they will suffer the second death.

Jesus finishes with a major point. and explains why some come (why some look) and why some do not look


19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 Foreveryone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have beendone in God.”

In simple terms…

Those in open rebellion, who refused to repent. Did not look to the Serpent, because if they did, they would have to admit they were guilty. And their pride was to deep. They loved their evil deeds. And refused to acknowledge that they were wrong.

Those who have repented. Who have seen tier sin Exposed. And are humbled. Will look to the light, Because in the light, they see salvation. And just like the tax collector. They called out. Or looked to the cross. And were given life.

Jesus goes on to explain this once again in John 5. This is not the only place Jesus spoke of this new birth which happens AFTER one in faith looks to the cross..

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

So how is one born again? Are they born again first. And THEN believe, as the reformed will say? Or do they believ first then they are born again?

well in both cases we have our answer.

1. We hear the word. Just like the people of israel did.
2. We repent of our rebellion, and look to gods salvation (in faith
3. Once we do this, our judgment is removed, we are born again, and we will live forever.

in the second question, Did jesus die for just a group of people. Or the whole of the world (who are guilty of rebellion?

1. God had moses put the serpent (the type of Christ) on a pole. Where EVERYONE who was guilty could see. So that salvation could be offered to all
2. Only those who repented of their guilt. And their rebellion, and confessed that God judged them rightly (they were guilty) were saved.
3. Those who openly chose freely to remain in rebellion and refused to repent. Although they could have been saved, God did not keep them from it, or prevent them from believing, chose to remain in open defiance, and ended up dieting out there in the wilderness.

To finish, Does world always mean world? Does t even matter? Once again, we shoudl not follow men, but test all spirit. Nicodemus was a Man of God. And an elder in the OT church. Yet he could not understand this truth. We shoudl trust no one. We can be openly defiant and use the fact that maybe the world is nto the world. And try everything to prove it might not be, but if we will not open ourselves to look at context all of that is mute.

It’s not a calvin VS arminian debate, those who try to make it one are off base. And are not open to discussion..

 

[Mem]

2 Corinthians 6:
3We put no obstacle in anyone’s way, so that no one can discredit our ministry.

 

[Rufus]

So once again, the troll Calvinist has proved he is a deceiver and a false accuser. I knew he was going to call me an arminian, Because sadly to many in this argument between two views. You are one or the other. You can not look at it any other way. Your either for me or against me, and if your against me, no matter what you believe, your on the other side.

But that is not even the point, He just spend a lot of time trying to prove world in John 3 does not mean :world”

Yet once again, He failed utterly to respond to the one point of John 3 which would prove him in error. Because you see, even if world could be interpreted in any other way, it does not mean it has to. We need Context to help us prove the point

so here we go. Let’s get context And Show @Rufus the error in his ways

1. Is the calvinist view of a man being born again BEFORE faith true? Or are we born again AFTer we have faith?
2. Does the world mean anything other than the word “world” Does it mean “Elect” or a group of people?

first. What is the context of John 3.

1. Jesus said, You must be born again. If you want to see the kingdom of God.

on this point, I believe @Rufus and I totally agree, We are dead in trespasses and sin, We are dead just by being “in Adam” We are separated from God. There is a Barrier between us and God, and if that barrier is not broken, We will be eternally separated from God. So we who are dead, must be made alive! again, I think we both agree this must happen, Where we disagree is when this happens

2. Nicodemus is confused. And thinks Jesus is speaking of being physically born again, so he asks if he must enter his mothers womb again.

3. Jesus tell him (and us) WHAT being born Again means

unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

A. Water and spirit. Sadly we have those who think this means water baptism, Yet Jesus never mentions baptism once. Jesus is speaking about two births. The birth of Water or physical birth (that which is born of flesh is flesh) and that birth of the spirit which is spiritual birth (that which is born of spirit is spirit

B. This spiritual birth is the second birth. Hence what Jesus is literally saying is we must be reborn, or born a second time (born again) if we want to see the kingdom of God.

C. This spiritual birth is not something we feel. Nor do we even know where it comes from, But it happens all the same.

4. Nicodemus, Still does not understand, so he asks, How can these things be (He basically asks Jesus “How do we become born again”

Now here is where we get down to the meat and bones. And we have To make a choice or two

1. Look at different views. Study the reformed view. The catholic view. The baptist view etc etc.. And chose which one we think fits our belief better? (which one we agree with or which one we think fits the rest of scripture the best)

2. Just read the passage, and follow along what is being said, and see what it really says, setting aside our own personal beliefs and just let God talk to us. I learned along time ago this is sometimes the best. While it is good to get other views. Sometimes just reading the passage will help you break some of your own misgivings, and allow you to test what you have been taught,, I found out by doing this, many of the things I trusted was true because of what I was taught growing up. Are not really true, and I had to break my own pride and come to the realization we can not always trust those who are our teachers. (We must not become man followers. But test each spirit)

So let’s just try number 2. Set everything aside, and determine, what did Jesus say? what is his answer? How are we born again, and When does it happen?

So in order for this not to be too long. Let’s break this down into another post. And look at the rest of Jesus and Nicodemus conversation to determine what Jesus said.

What I highlighted doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus tell anyone unless you are born physically and spiritually you cannot enter the kingdom? Nicodemus knew he had already been born physically.

The better interpretation of the passage that would preserve the integrity of the simile between the two different kinds of births is that Jesus meant by water the Water of the Word of God. Just as it takes two people of the opposite sex to make a child, it takes two spiritual components to make a child of God, i.e. the Word and the Spirit. And scripture bears this truth out (Jn 6:63; Tit 3:5; Eph 5:26; 1Pet 1:22-23; Ezek 36:25-28).

And, no, I did not spend a lot of time proving that the term "world" doesn't mean world. I spent time proving that the term very often is used in the limited sense, which is how the apostle John most often used it -- if indeed not all the time!

At least Reformed folks can take Jn 3:17 at value and believe what the text actually says -- that God sent his Son into the world to ACTUALLY save it through him! We don't have to butcher the text with phony baloney presuppositions. Jesus has been saving the world, is saving the world and will continue to save it until the Last Day. He just hasn't been saving each and every person in it! But he has been saving people all over the world, and the apostle confirms this fact for us!

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sang a new song:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
NIV

The passage does not say that Jesus purchased each and every person on the planet with his blood for God; but He did purchase people from all over this globe -- of all races -- of all ethnicities -- of all languages. In other words, Jesus is truly and actually the Savior of the World as the text says and in other places as well (Jn 4:42; 1Jn 4:14) -- not some pathetic, wanna-be, hand-wringing savior -- not some potential or possible savior that non-Reformed systems of theology have dreamt up in their carnal imaginations.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

2 Corinthians 6:
3We put no obstacle in anyone’s way, so that no one can discredit our ministry.

6 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. 2 For He says:

“In an acceptable time I have heard you,
And in the day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

 

[Rufus]

Part 3, the conclusion

Jesus will finish up by using a type in the OT that nicodemus, as a teacher of the law. Would understand and know well

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,

here jesus uses a few short words. But this will open up a huge understanding for Nicodemus who would have been instantly taken back to when this happened (i have had this happen many times, i am sure we all have)

so to help. Lets go back ourselves (In case there are some who are reading this who do not know the story.

For those who want to follow along, We find this story in Numbers 21.

To set the stage, The lord had just given Israel a great victory. He just defeated the Canaanite’s and destroyed a bunch of their cities. So Israel continued on, Then went into the wilderness, to stay away from the Land of Edom. Sadly, The children of Israel once again, showed their unbelief in God. They complained, they Spoke out again God and Moses.

So God sent serpents to them, and they could not get around them, they started to bite the people and many of the were dying, so once again, they cried out to God. And begged moses to ask God to take the serpents away, Which moses did. But God sent a different answer. He would not take away the cause of this death, but he would offer a solution, so that they may live inspite of the venom that was killing them (they were literally dead men and women walking)

Here is Gods answer:

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Such a short story. But a HUGE spiritual impact will be brought forth

1. God has Moses make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole (A type of Christ)
2. When people were bit. They were in effect dead. If they wanted to live (be reborn) they could continue to try to save themselves. Or they could trust in Gods provision, and just “look in faith to the serpent on the pole”
3. Those who did although they were dead, lived (they were in effect born again)
4. Those who did not in unbelief, remain condemned in the judgment of God in which he sent because of their rebellion

the point is, the serpent was not just sent to save those who lived, it was sent to save ANYONE who would believe, and just look at the serpent as god commanded them to.

The whole congregation of Isreal (the world) was guilty, and God sent something to save them all (a type of Christ) He who believe was saved, he who did not remained judged.

This will help Nicodemus, and us, see the rest of what Jesus said, and help us understand this spiritual truth of which the fiery serpent was a “type” or “symbol” to help explain this spiritual truth


even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

So Jesus starts out by saying in like manner (to fill fill the type) the son of man must also be lifted up.. why?

15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now let’s do what Nicodemus owuld have done, Open our minds. Look at the type and the fulfiment of the bronze serpent, and the son of man, both of whom would hang on a pole to save people.

1. Just like in Moses day, everyone was judged, God sent the serpents in judgment because of Israel sins. We today are judged, our judgment is spiritual death, Again, The wage of sin is death, in adam all die. The curse of the law (not keeping it perfectly) was death.

2. Just like in Moses day, The one hanging on the pole is capable of saving everyone who has been judged, it was not just sent for a group f people. But the whole of the nation of Israel (or in our case. The whole of the world. For ALL have sinned, and fall short)

3. Just like in moses day, Whoever in faith looks to the cross will be saved. Whoever in unbelief continues to reject Gods answer. Will end up suffering the judgment imposed By God on their sin (spiritual death) and remain in this condemned state

Jesus finishes it off with this point. He was not sent to judge the world (the bronze serpent was not sent to Judge Israel) he was sent so the world may be saved (as the bronze serpent was sent so that the children of Israel could be saved)

he who believes is not condemned, (he will live, Jesus calls this life “eternal” in that as he said, they will never die. This salvation in this case is eternal. The judgment for their rebellion has been removed, and they are forever saved.

Who who remains in unbelief (refuses to look to the cross in open rebellion) will remain condemned, and if they do not repent before they leave this earth, they will suffer the second death.

Jesus finishes with a major point. and explains why some come (why some look) and why some do not look


19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 Foreveryone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have beendone in God.”

In simple terms…

Those in open rebellion, who refused to repent. Did not look to the Serpent, because if they did, they would have to admit they were guilty. And their pride was to deep. They loved their evil deeds. And refused to acknowledge that they were wrong.

Those who have repented. Who have seen tier sin Exposed. And are humbled. Will look to the light, Because in the light, they see salvation. And just like the tax collector. They called out. Or looked to the cross. And were given life.

Jesus goes on to explain this once again in John 5. This is not the only place Jesus spoke of this new birth which happens AFTER one in faith looks to the cross..

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

So how is one born again? Are they born again first. And THEN believe, as the reformed will say? Or do they believ first then they are born again?

well in both cases we have our answer.

1. We hear the word. Just like the people of israel did.
2. We repent of our rebellion, and look to gods salvation (in faith
3. Once we do this, our judgment is removed, we are born again, and we will live forever.

in the second question, Did jesus die for just a group of people. Or the whole of the world (who are guilty of rebellion?

1. God had moses put the serpent (the type of Christ) on a pole. Where EVERYONE who was guilty could see. So that salvation could be offered to all
2. Only those who repented of their guilt. And their rebellion, and confessed that God judged them rightly (they were guilty) were saved.
3. Those who openly chose freely to remain in rebellion and refused to repent. Although they could have been saved, God did not keep them from it, or prevent them from believing, chose to remain in open defiance, and ended up dieting out there in the wilderness.

To finish, Does world always mean world? Does t even matter? Once again, we shoudl not follow men, but test all spirit. Nicodemus was a Man of God. And an elder in the OT church. Yet he could not understand this truth. We shoudl trust no one. We can be openly defiant and use the fact that maybe the world is nto the world. And try everything to prove it might not be, but if we will not open ourselves to look at context all of that is mute.

It’s not a calvin VS arminian debate, those who try to make it one are off base. And are not open to discussion..

One either holds to the Reformed Traditons of the Faith or they don't. The ones who don't very likely subscribe to Amrinianism or some form of Pelagianism.

By the way, Bunky, you skipped part 2. Don't tell me that you're going to leave out the best part of the Nicodemus dialogue. Aren't you going to tell us if Jesus told the learned elder that he must do something to be born again or something must be done to him to be born again?

 

[Cameron143]

Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus is speaking to disciples before the cross and resurrection. The verse says that everything that is being given to Jesus to say and do at THAT time is from the Father. The verse also says no one except the Father knows the Son at THAT time. The verse also says that no one except the Son at THAT time knows the Father, but only those to whom Jesus wills at THAT time to reveal the Father.

Are you reading more into the text than it says?

Actually, if you read Matthew 16, you will find this truth in action. Jesus builds His church according to this principle.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What I highlighted doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus tell anyone unless you are born physically and spiritually you cannot enter the kingdom? Nicodemus knew he had already been born physically.

The better interpretation of the passage that would preserve the integrity of the simile between the two different kinds of births is that Jesus meant by water the Water of the Word of God. Just as it takes two people of the opposite sex to make a child, it takes two spiritual components to make a child of God, i.e. the Word and the Spirit. And scripture bears this truth out (Jn 6:63; Tit 3:5; Eph 5:26; 1Pet 1:22-23; Ezek 36:25-28).

And, no, I did not spend a lot of time proving that the term "world" doesn't mean world. I spent time proving that the term very often is used in the limited sense, which is how the apostle John most often used it -- if indeed not all the time!

At least Reformed folks can take Jn 3:17 at value and believe what the text actually says -- that God sent his Son into the world to ACTUALLY save it through him! We don't have to butcher the text with phony baloney presuppositions. Jesus has been saving the world, is saving the world and will continue to save it until the Last Day. He just hasn't been saving each and every person in it! But he has been saving people all over the world, and the apostle confirms this fact for us!

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sang a new song:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
NIV

The passage does not say that Jesus purchased each and every person on the planet with his blood for God; but He did purchase people from all over this globe -- of all races -- of all ethnicities -- of all languages. In other words, Jesus is truly and actually the Savior of the World as the text says and in other places as well (Jn 4:42; 1Jn 4:14) -- not some pathetic, wanna-be, hand-wringing savior -- not some potential or possible savior that non-Reformed systems of theology have dreamt up in their carnal imaginations.

I just want to share with those who are willing the actual point I have been making

Instead of looking at Jesus words, and looking at the whole of the conversation. He still wants to look at it from a reformed view (his mind is closed)


He asks the question (questions are good if done right) why would jesus tell anyone the following

{quote]Why would Jesus tell anyone unless you are born physically and spiritually you cannot enter the kingdom? Nicodemus knew he had already been born physically. {/quote]

Then he rolls his eyes, in a mocking tone.. Completely closed minded.

If he would have continue to read my post wiht an open mind, he would see jesus explained this himself

1. Nicodemus evidently did not understand, thats why he asked, must I enter my mothers womb once again?

2. Since Nicodemus did not understand, he tried to explain it to him (unless one is born of water and spirit. That which is born of flesh (physical) is flesh, that which is born of spirit (spiritual) is spirit.

but you see, When you have a closed mind like @Rufus does. You can not see the simple things that are right in front of him.

Why would jesus say it? Well in my view. This is the wrong question, jesus DID SAY IT. so why are we asking IF he said it we should intead be asking WHY he said it

And jesus goes on, If I told you earthly things and you do not understand, how can you understand if I told you spiritual things.

once again. You need to read the whole passage. You can not just break apart a passage and then try to pick out or attack parts of the passage you do not think will support your view (or those who are tryign to explain what it says in that way?

Also, finally, See once again, @Rufus refuses to look at the type of the example Jesus himself used to prove Jesus own point. Multiple times I have shown him and asked him about this type. But he ill not even mention it

This is what people do when they know their argument is lost if they focus on a point. They will ignore it altogether, they will look at every other argument which supports them, and as a last resort. They will do as @Rufus is doing here. And attack the messenger.

He even missed the point I made concerning the fact that EVEN if he was correct. And the world did not mean the “whole” world. It just meant a Group of people (in his case the elect) it does not mean it is required to be interpreted a group of people (as he is doing) in that case, we need to look at context.

Which I did.. Yet he still can not see the point. And still will refuse to look at context. Just mocking my answer, and asking the wrong question.

He needs to know. He is just keeping himself from seeing the truth. And those who look at his answers need to see his tactic. So they will not fall for it themselves.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One either holds to the Reformed Traditons of the Faith or they don't. The ones who don't very likely subscribe to Amrinianism or some form of Pelagianism.

And there you go people. He just made my case for me, remember all the way in the begining when i made this comment.

So once again, the troll Calvinist has proved he is a deceiver and a false accuser. I knew he was going to call me an arminian, Because sadly to many in this argument between two views. You are one or the other. You can not look at it any other way. Your either for me or against me, and if your against me, no matter what you believe, your on the other side.
.

See, To him (and thoe like him) there is his view, and there is the arminian view. he ignores the catholics, the baptists, the Lutherans, all the other views. Which are neither arminian, or calvinistic. So in doing so. He is looking through glasses that are focused on those two views. Your either for him or your against him, There are only two views. There is no third view.

Thats why he is a false accuser (he can not know what others believe, because he will not listen to them, he puts them all on one said or the other)

and thats why i call him a troll. He is closed minded.

By the way, Bunky, you skipped part 2.

See. On attack mode. I spent three long posts explaining in context what jesus said

he picked out one part by asking the wrong question (why would jesus say something instead of why)

Then he went back to vs 17 (see how closed minded he is)

finally, he had to attack by using a mocking word.

Don't tell me that you're going to leave out the best part of the Nicodemus dialogue. Aren't you going to tell us if Jesus told the learned elder that he must do something to be born again or something must be done to him to be born again?

Then he PROVES 100 % he did not listen to a word i said, (or in fact what Jesus said)

1. Nicodemus asked, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN

2. Jesus answered his question by showing him WHAT MUST YOU DO

(vs 10 -21)

@Rufus do yourself a favor. Go back to the begining of my first post. Open your heart and your mind, and see what jesus said,, and if nothing else. give us your interpretation of the whole conversation.

Don;t pick out a view verses, and then to try attack someone by saying they are wrong, when you refuse to show what you see..

 

[Mem]

And jesus goes on, If I told you earthly things and you do not understand, how can you understand if I told you spiritual things.

IOW, if you don't understand how natural birth works, how can you understand how spiritual birth works. That is, why would you try to enter back into your mother's womb, when you need to go up a level>and faith is the seed, here, and the womb is the Word of God. Place your faith within the Word of God...

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

IOW, if you don't understand how natural birth works, how can you understand how spiritual birth works. That is, why would you try to enter back into your mother's womb, when you need to go up a level>and faith is the seed, here, and the womb is the Word of God. Place your faith within the Word of God...

Yes, As jesus said in John 6. It is the spirit who gives life (spiritual birth) the words I speak are spirit and they are life!!

 

[Rufus]

Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus is speaking to disciples before the cross and resurrection. The verse says that everything that is being given to Jesus to say and do at THAT time is from the Father. The verse also says no one except the Father knows the Son at THAT time. The verse also says that no one except the Son at THAT time knows the Father, but only those to whom Jesus wills at THAT time to reveal the Father.

Are you reading more into the text than it says?

No I'm not. But are you by placing arbitrary time frame on Jesus?

 

[Rufus]

And there you go people. He just made my case for me, remember all the way in the begining when i made this comment.


See, To him (and thoe like him) there is his view, and there is the arminian view. he ignores the catholics, the baptists, the Lutherans, all the other views. Which are neither arminian, or calvinistic. So in doing so. He is looking through glasses that are focused on those two views. Your either for him or your against him, There are only two views. There is no third view.

Thats why he is a false accuser (he can not know what others believe, because he will not listen to them, he puts them all on one said or the other)

and thats why i call him a troll. He is closed minded.



See. On attack mode. I spent three long posts explaining in context what jesus said

he picked out one part by asking the wrong question (why would jesus say something instead of why)

Then he went back to vs 17 (see how closed minded he is)

finally, he had to attack by using a mocking word.


Then he PROVES 100 % he did not listen to a word i said, (or in fact what Jesus said)

1. Nicodemus asked, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN

2. Jesus answered his question by showing him WHAT MUST YOU DO

(vs 10 -21)

@Rufus do yourself a favor. Go back to the begining of my first post. Open your heart and your mind, and see what jesus said,, and if nothing else. give us your interpretation of the whole conversation.

Don;t pick out a view verses, and then to try attack someone by saying they are wrong, when you refuse to show what you see..

You don't read too swell, do you? Give me the the exact verse in the passage that tells Nicodemus what he must do to be born from above? Did Nicodemus have anything to do with his physical birth? Then what would possess you to think that he would have anything to do with his spiritual birth? That he could will himself to be born again? Do you know what a metaphor is? What a simile is? What an analogy is? Has it every occurred to you that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that something must be done TO him from above? Have you ever pondered verse 8 wherein Jesus speaks of the sovereign will of the Spirit? Or have you ever read Jn 1:13? Can you connect the dots between these two latter verses?

A chain is only as good as its weakest link. And so it is also with arguments, premises, syllogisms, etc. There are no weak links in the Doctrines of Grace. They are not only solidly connected together, but they all connect just as solidly with the rest of scripture as well.

 

[Rufus]

Also, Mr. EG, I have a question to ask you about this verse:

John 3:10
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?
ASV

Jesus chided Nicodemus for his ignorance of the OT scriptures. Since you pride yourself of all the vast knowledge you think you have of the sacred scriptures, can you tell me what OT passage{s) Jesus likely had in mind that was behind his rebuke of this teacher?

 

[Rufus]

I just want to share with those who are willing the actual point I have been making

Instead of looking at Jesus words, and looking at the whole of the conversation. He still wants to look at it from a reformed view (his mind is closed)


He asks the question (questions are good if done right) why would jesus tell anyone the following

{quote]Why would Jesus tell anyone unless you are born physically and spiritually you cannot enter the kingdom? Nicodemus knew he had already been born physically. {/quote]

Then he rolls his eyes, in a mocking tone.. Completely closed minded.

If he would have continue to read my post wiht an open mind, he would see jesus explained this himself

1. Nicodemus evidently did not understand, thats why he asked, must I enter my mothers womb once again?

2. Since Nicodemus did not understand, he tried to explain it to him (unless one is born of water and spirit. That which is born of flesh (physical) is flesh, that which is born of spirit (spiritual) is spirit.

but you see, When you have a closed mind like @Rufus does. You can not see the simple things that are right in front of him.

Why would jesus say it? Well in my view. This is the wrong question, jesus DID SAY IT. so why are we asking IF he said it we should intead be asking WHY he said it

And jesus goes on, If I told you earthly things and you do not understand, how can you understand if I told you spiritual things.

once again. You need to read the whole passage. You can not just break apart a passage and then try to pick out or attack parts of the passage you do not think will support your view (or those who are tryign to explain what it says in that way?

Also, finally, See once again, @Rufus refuses to look at the type of the example Jesus himself used to prove Jesus own point. Multiple times I have shown him and asked him about this type. But he ill not even mention it

This is what people do when they know their argument is lost if they focus on a point. They will ignore it altogether, they will look at every other argument which supports them, and as a last resort. They will do as @Rufus is doing here. And attack the messenger.

He even missed the point I made concerning the fact that EVEN if he was correct. And the world did not mean the “whole” world. It just meant a Group of people (in his case the elect) it does not mean it is required to be interpreted a group of people (as he is doing) in that case, we need to look at context.

Which I did.. Yet he still can not see the point. And still will refuse to look at context. Just mocking my answer, and asking the wrong question.

He needs to know. He is just keeping himself from seeing the truth. And those who look at his answers need to see his tactic. So they will not fall for it themselves.

All the numerous questions I have asked you to which you have never responded are always wrong to you. You don't like being asked tough questions. So, my question about why would Jesus ask such foolish question when it was obvious to Nicodemus that he was already a physical human being is a legitimate question. Why state something obvious? My answer is that Jesus wasn't asking something so obvious -- but rather something spiritual and eternal which totally eluded Nicodemus, thus a great reason for the asking question, as I explained earlier. You obviously don't understand how analogies, metaphors or similes work.