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Cameron143

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it is a logical fallacy to impose the conditions that appertain to belonging to Christ after the cross and impose them on people livingbefore the cross.
Also, having the Spirit and the Holy Spirit indwelling are not the same thing.
What's the difference between Spirit and Holy Spirit?
And it's not a fallacy. God has revealed truth progressively throughout history. Just because truth isn't known doesn't mean it wasn't always true. Was God self existent before He declared Himself to be so? Was Christ God before He revealed Himself to be so?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Ephesians 5:14; John 5:21; Matthew 11:27b
:)
PT has previously twisted Mat 11:27 so out of shape, the verse no longer says what it does. He didn't care for the fact that Jesus gets to decide who lives and who doesn't. I guess he thought that was "unfair".
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Another straw man. You're just full of those aren't you? I''m worse than Paul, who thought of himself as the less than least of the saints; for I am less than the less.
Thats one reason on the one hand, I like discussing with people like you. on the other hand, I despise it.

I like it, because it is so easy to expose you.

I dislike it, because it just shows me how heard headed and proud people can be. that they will not even see what they are doing.

You can;t refute me, So you attack, and make silly remarks like this..

I just LOL

It's easy to refute John 3. At the Last Supper -- the Passover Supper -- that Jesus celebrated with his disciples, he told them plainly when he instituted the New Covenant that it was in his blood that would be shed for MANY. He didn't say for the entire world, or for each and every person in the world. And "many" cannot mean all. Many is a portion of all.
Sorry but, This is not a refutation. This is just another way to not head the truth.

PS. the word translated "world" in John 3, Is KOSMOS, it means the world order. satan's domain, his system.

He died for those people who are trapped in that world..

And...I believe in Luke's version of the Last Supper, the text limits it even further by saying that his blood would be shed for YOU, i.e. his disciples at the table and by extension of course all future generations of disciples.
John 3 please.. Stick to john 3, show me where I was wrong in what I said about the serpent and everything else that was said..

Moreover, John never uses the term "world" in the distributive sense because Jews never thought of themselves as being part of the pagan world (like all Gentile nations were).
This does not prove your point

Once again, He used moses and the serpent as an example. The serpent was there to save everyone because God had compassion on them, but only those who looked in faith were saved.

In the same token, Jesus was hung on the cross. It could ave everyone, as Jesus said.. but only those who look in faiht will be saved.

Will you stick to john 3 or keep making excuses?
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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And the "whoever" limits who he love! The "whoever" actually qualifies the extent of the world.
What school of language did you go to?

He died for the world that WHOEVER..

Once again, Using your interpretation, He died for the world so that THEY would believe and be saved.

Thats not what the text says
Well then...your issue is with God if that's what you think.
I have no issue with God
You must think God would be unfair if he did that, right?
Well anyone should have a problem with that. If you claim you are all loving, yet do not practice what you preach. your a hypocrite

If you tell your people that we are to love all people even our enemy, yet you do not do that yourself. you are a hypocrite.

Now if you want to follow a God that is a hypocrite. well best of luck to you.

But My God pracices what he preaches, And he does love all people. He is the reason I love all people myself.. because he is my example
As though he's morally obligated to save anyone?
God could snap his fingers and send everyone of us to hell this very second. But in his own wisdom and grace, he chose to not do this, But show grace to his creation.

Does God have a duty to perform to man?
When you love someone, it is not a duty

And why are you so ignorant of the scriptures? Don't you know that God does all things for his own glory -- not man's? And he does all things for his good pleasure, not man's? And he does things for his purpose, not man's? And that God's sovereign will is not contingent upon man? But...I give you this: You are the KING of STRAW [my] Man. :rolleyes:
Yep he does it for his glory,

Now you tell me, what gives God more glory.

1. Your way.
Everyone deserves hell. But God died for a select few and makes them alive so they could believe and be saved, while keeping his gift from everyone else. then sending them to hell even though they deserve it, without giving them a chance?

2. Gods way
Everyone deserves hell. But God in his infinite love, mercy and grace came to earth, Died for everyone, and gives EVERYONE a chance. And when those who had the opportunity to be saved, reject him, get sent to hell. God is still glorified, because he offered them a way out. It is not him sending them to hell. they sent themselves to hell

And by the way, I am going to tell you right now. Keep your pride to yourself. I am not ignorant of scripture.. Your the one worshiping a hypocrite for a God. Not me,,

Before you Attack others, you need to study the word yourself. and when you do it, put your calvinist glasses away. Because you see things through a view of man, Not God
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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PT has previously twisted Mat 11:27 so out of shape, the verse no longer says what it does. He didn't care for the fact that Jesus gets to decide who lives and who doesn't. I guess he thought that was "unfair".
Your right, Jesus does get to decide. and he did

Whoever BELIEVES is not condemned (lives)

whoever does not believe is condemned already (will remain dead)


Jesus decided along time ago.. Because he is a god of love, He practices what he preaches..
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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PT has previously twisted Mat 11:27 so out of shape, the verse no longer says what it does. He didn't care for the fact that Jesus gets to decide who lives and who doesn't. I guess he thought that was "unfair".
One has to wonder where and how people come up with ideas such as God must do x y z for me if He did it for you.
@HeIsHere says pretty much the same thing, but a reading of Scripture will show their position to be erroneous.
Otherwise, all believers would have a road to Damascus and burning bush experience.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Not everyone would take head to a road to demascus situation..

I mean how many pharisees saw Jesus raise a man from the dead.. Yet their pride was so deep. Instead of choosing to repent. they said he did it by satan's power.

Other people see little. and just know (like the tax collector)

so like I always say God treats us as induviduals.. what works for me may not work for you
 

Magenta

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Not everyone would take head to a road to demascus situation..

I mean how many pharisees saw Jesus raise a man from the dead.. Yet their pride was so deep. Instead of choosing to repent. they said he did it by satan's power.

Other people see little. and just know (like the tax collector)

so like I always say God treats us as individuals.. what works for me may not work for you
Well, they compound their error by saying God would be unfair if He did something for one and not another. Again one has to wonder how they came to this conclusion as a Bible-believing Bible reading Christian, and when and why they have set themselves up to be God's judge. And it is not like He is doing something new in revealing Himself as and when and to whom He chooses. He always has.


1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
:)
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Thats one reason on the one hand, I like discussing with people like you. on the other hand, I despise it.

I like it, because it is so easy to expose you.

I dislike it, because it just shows me how heard headed and proud people can be. that they will not even see what they are doing.

You can;t refute me, So you attack, and make silly remarks like this..

I just LOL


Sorry but, This is not a refutation. This is just another way to not head the truth.

PS. the word translated "world" in John 3, Is KOSMOS, it means the world order. satan's domain, his system.

He died for those people who are trapped in that world..


John 3 please.. Stick to john 3, show me where I was wrong in what I said about the serpent and everything else that was said..


This does not prove your point

Once again, He used moses and the serpent as an example. The serpent was there to save everyone because God had compassion on them, but only those who looked in faith were saved.

In the same token, Jesus was hung on the cross. It could ave everyone, as Jesus said.. but only those who look in faiht will be saved.

Will you stick to john 3 or keep making excuses?
It's very evident to me that you believe your false gospel because you do not understand bible passages in their three-fold context. Jesus' words at the Last Supper, for example, very clearly refute your interpretation of Jn 3:16, which you yourself interpret out of its more immediate context! (Funny how you can make a big deal of appealing to Jesus' words in Jn 3:16, but when I do it it doesn't count because those passages I alluded to are not in the immediate context of Jn 3:16 even though they are highly relevant to the topic at hand. Duplicitous much?) As another example, are you aware that there are numerous passages in the bible that clearly teach that God hates, despises, abhors sinners, as well as their deeds? So how would you be able to reconcile all those contradictory passages with your take on Jn 3:16? Or what explanation would you give for Jesus' explicit omission of the "world" from High Priestly prayer in Jn 17:9 in which he prays only his Father's elect?

Your serpent example in the wilderness is a non sequitur for a few reasons: One of the main ones is that God had already redeemed his chosen people from Pharaoh's dark dominion. Rescue Mission Accomplished! The Wilderness experience is a different aspect to the Exodus process. Also, the serpent event doesn't answer the question: For whom did Christ die? But I am again amazed at your duplicity because you appeal to the typology in wilderness to try to prove your point. But when I appealed to the institution of the Passover Feast in Eqypt and pointed out that God instituted the Passover only with Abraham's descendants and NOT the world (i.e. Egypt which was a type thereof!) and drew the parallel between that and the Last Supper when Jesus instituted the New Covenant, again, with only Abraham's descendants, you just glibly dismissed the analogy. And, of course, Jesus is the Passover Lamb (1Cor 5:7) for all Abraham's descendants. He's not the Passover Lamb for the entire world! Nor has God ever made a redemptive covenant with the entire world!

But you did get something half-right! The Gr. term "kosmos" can have a strong moral-spiritual component to it (depending on the context) such as you pointed. But...that is a sword that cuts both ways! It can also mean the godly, elect IN the world but who are not OF it. (See John 17.) Jesus in one sense did pray for the entire world in this chapter, i.e. all the elect who are IN and will be IN the world (both flocks of sheep that will become one). But he explicitly excluded the world in another sense -- in the sense that you point out. He did not pray for Satan's seed! He did not pray for those OF the world. Therefore, Jn 3:16 must be understood in its limited, qualified sense to mean elect Gentiles in the world, since the Jews never considered themselves to be part of the world -- to be associated with any pagan nation.

Finally, you want to deal with Jn 3:16 so badly? Fine. I'll deal with it from a Word Usage and context standpoint. Something you cannot do. All you can do is argue in circles, i.e. "The text says 'world', so that has to mean each and every person in it." Stay tuned. You will get your wish -- plus!

P.S. One more little interesting detail about choice of words in the last sentence, especially:

PS. the word translated "world" in John 3, Is KOSMOS, it means the world order. satan's domain, his system.

He died for those people who are trapped in that world..

You might want to choose your words more carefully! "TRAPPED", you say? You mean "trapped" like the ancient, helpless Israelites were in Egypt who God rescued from Pharaoh? You're beginning to wax like a "Calvinist". Tsk, tsk, tsk. :rolleyes: I guess that's why God had to "force" the Israelites to evacuate Egypt, right: Because they were helpless and powerless to leave under their own power? They wre trapped in Land of Darkness? A rather peculiar way you look at God's great salvation -- like he forces himself on helpless sinners he chooses to save instead of leaving them to die in their own sins to burn in hell forever. In your world, it would be better if God did the latter rather than he act mercifully and compassionately to do the former.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Well, they compound their error by saying God would be unfair if He did something for one and not another. Again one has to wonder how they came to this conclusion as a Bible-believing Bible reading Christian, and when and why they have set themselves up to be God's judge. And it is not like He is doing something new in revealing Himself as and when and to whom He chooses. He always has.


1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
:)
I guess it would depend.

If you look at the fatalistic view. And God chose to allow you the opportunity to believe, But did not give the person next to you even the remotest of all possibilities. then I agree.. That would not be a God that I would want to follow

But if God gave you a good job that you really like. But did not give that job to the person next to him, Well that is totally different. Or God answers your prayer but does not answer mine (actually he did, just not the way I wanted him to answer it) that is totally different
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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It's very evident to me that you believe your false gospel because you do not understand bible passages in their three-fold context.
Do tell. What is my gospel? I would love for you to tell me (I guarantee you do not know)

it is very evident to me your pride is deep. You can not even have a conversation with someone without continually attacking them

Jesus' words at the Last Supper, for example, very clearly refute your interpretation of Jn 3:16, which you yourself interpret out of its more immediate context! (Funny how you can make a big deal of appealing to Jesus' words in Jn 3:16, but when I do it it doesn't count because those passages I alluded to are not in the immediate context of Jn 3:16 even though they are highly relevant to the topic at hand. Duplicitous much?) As another example, are you aware that there are numerous passages in the bible that clearly teach that God hates, despises, abhors sinners, as well as their deeds? So how would you be able to reconcile all those contradictory passages with your take on Jn 3:16? Or what explanation would you give for Jesus' explicit omission of the "world" from High Priestly prayer in Jn 17:9 in which he prays only his Father's elect?

Your serpent example in the wilderness is a non sequitur for a few reasons: One of the main ones is that God had already redeemed his chosen people from Pharaoh's dark dominion. Rescue Mission Accomplished! The Wilderness experience is a different aspect to the Exodus process. Also, the serpent event doesn't answer the question: For whom did Christ die? But I am again amazed at your duplicity because you appeal to the typology in wilderness to try to prove your point. But when I appealed to the institution of the Passover Feast in Eqypt and pointed out that God instituted the Passover only with Abraham's descendants and NOT the world (i.e. Egypt which was a type thereof!) and drew the parallel between that and the Last Supper when Jesus instituted the New Covenant, again, with only Abraham's descendants, you just glibly dismissed the analogy. And, of course, Jesus is the Passover Lamb (1Cor 5:7) for all Abraham's descendants. He's not the Passover Lamb for the entire world! Nor has God ever made a redemptive covenant with the entire world!

But you did get something half-right! The Gr. term "kosmos" can have a strong moral-spiritual component to it (depending on the context) such as you pointed. But...that is a sword that cuts both ways! It can also mean the godly, elect IN the world but who are not OF it. (See John 17.) Jesus in one sense did pray for the entire world in this chapter, i.e. all the elect who are IN and will be IN the world (both flocks of sheep that will become one). But he explicitly excluded the world in another sense -- in the sense that you point out. He did not pray for Satan's seed! He did not pray for those OF the world. Therefore, Jn 3:16 must be understood in its limited, qualified sense to mean elect Gentiles in the world, since the Jews never considered themselves to be part of the world -- to be associated with any pagan nation.

Finally, you want to deal with Jn 3:16 so badly? Fine. I'll deal with it from a Word Usage and context standpoint. Something you cannot do. All you can do is argue in circles, i.e. "The text says 'world', so that has to mean each and every person in it." Stay tuned. You will get your wish -- plus!

P.S. One more little interesting detail about choice of words in the last sentence, especially:

PS. the word translated "world" in John 3, Is KOSMOS, it means the world order. satan's domain, his system.

He died for those people who are trapped in that world..

You might want to choose your words more carefully! "TRAPPED", you say? You mean "trapped" like the ancient, helpless Israelites were in Egypt who God rescued from Pharaoh? You're beginning to wax like a "Calvinist". Tsk, tsk, tsk. :rolleyes: I guess that's why God had to "force" the Israelites to evacuate Egypt, right: Because they were helpless and powerless to leave under their own power? They wre trapped in Land of Darkness? A rather peculiar way you look at God's great salvation -- like he forces himself on helpless sinners he chooses to save instead of leaving them to die in their own sins to burn in hell forever. In your world, it would be better if God did the latter rather than he act mercifully and compassionately to do the former.
lol..

One thing is evident, you will only see what you want to see

Those people who left egypt. they were unbelievers, they complained, they so wanted to go back to Egypt. they even had Aaron create a Golden calf when Moses disappeared for a few days. In fact, God said quite clearly. they did not enter his rest.

and you want to use that to prove your point?

Thats ok, I know it proves my point, He rescued them ALL.. not just some of them, But not every trusted him, so while they were rescued from egypt. they did not enter the promised land, they died condemned sinners out in the wilderness.

You still have refused to mention Moses and the serpent. and how it was able to save everyone, But only those who believed were saved

See how you pick and chose.

You should give it up man, Your hurting yourself

Bring it on my friend, Your not the first person who thought he was going to "school" me..
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I guess it would depend.

If you look at the fatalistic view. And God chose to allow you the opportunity to believe, But did not give the person next to you even the remotest of all possibilities. then I agree.. That would not be a God that I would want to follow

But if God gave you a good job that you really like. But did not give that job to the person next to him, Well that is totally different. Or God answers your prayer but does not answer mine (actually he did, just not the way I wanted him to answer it) that is totally different
Heh, I am not sure how the job aspect works into all this, but it seems propitious because I have been thinking how fortunate I am in the work I do and how good and gracious God has been toward me in providing this... because what I do is the only thing I knew I wanted to do when I was younger, and I have been doing it (with somewhat minor breaks here and there) for coming up to fifty years! Ours is what is called a twilight industry and so we are not always that busy; yesterday my boss knew I would not have much to do today and he said, come in and relax! Haha. How many have a boss that says that to them??? So I brought in my laptop, which I don't always do, especially if and when we are busy, which does happen concurrent with the school year starts and ends, and then I don't have time for it. But today I may spend the majority of the day in the lunch room. You know, when I started this as a career, I was not a believer, but I had always credited the Spirit of the universe for granting me this, even though I do not think I even prayed about it, it was just something I wanted and pursued as much as was available to me at the time which really wasn't much, since there were only two photolabs in my home town and I'd heard bad things about one of them... so I was only applying at the other one, and they would not hire me because I had no experience!!! LOL!!! Though they eventually did because I persisted, and the people they had hired in the meantime, since I'd started applying for the job, every single one had quit after a short time. They did not like something about the job. I loved it and only quit that first lab job a year and a half later to relocate to the west coast, where I secured a job two days after arriving, where I worked for five years, and that job led into this one, which I started in 1982. Anyways...

The unbeliever is without excuse. Oh, they all make excuses to be sure, and often in their mindset they will say Christians are to blame, and we even have Christians saying they refuse to call themselves such as if they are above and beyond the reach of the failings of humanity. Which makes me wonder why they do not refuse to call themselves a human being!!!

And being without excuse, that is, knowing there is a God, is is incumbent upon them
to seek Him, which God promises to respond to with person revelaltion. But the natural
man cannot accept that such revaltions come from the one true God because they are
hostile in their minds towards God. Their heart must be changed.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Heh, I am not sure how the job aspect works into all this, but it seems propitious because I have been thinking how fortunate I am in the work I do and how good and gracious God has been toward me in providing this... because what I do is the only thing I knew I wanted to do when I was younger, and I have been doing it (with somewhat minor breaks here and there) for coming up to fifty years! Ours is what is called a twilight industry and so we are not always that busy; yesterday my boss knew I would not have much to do today and he said, come in and relax! Haha. How many have a boss that says that to them??? So I brought in my laptop, which I don't always do, especially if and when we are busy, which does happen concurrent with the school year starts and ends, and then I don't have time for it. But today I may spend the majority of the day in the lunch room. You know, when I started this as a career, I was not a believer, but I had always credited the Spirit of the universe for granting me this, even though I do not think I even prayed about it, it was just something I wanted and pursued as much as was available to me at the time which really wasn't much, since there were only two photolabs in my home town and I'd heard bad things about one of them... so I was only applying at the other one, and they would not hire me because I had no experience!!! LOL!!! Though they eventually did because I persisted, and the people they had hired in the meantime, since I'd started applying for the job, every single one had quit after a short time. They did not like something about the job. I loved it and only quit that first lab job a year and a half later to relocate to the west coast, where I secured a job two days after arriving, where I worked for five years, and that job led into this one, which I started in 1982. Anyways...

The unbeliever is without excuse. Oh, they all make excuses to be sure, and often in their mindset they will say Christians are to blame, and we even have Christians saying they refuse to call themselves such as if they are above and beyond the reach of the failings of humanity. Which makes me wonder why they do not refuse to call themselves a human being!!!

And being without excuse, that is, knowing there is a God, is is incumbent upon them
to seek Him, which God promises to respond to with person revelaltion. But the natural
man cannot accept that such revaltions come from the one true God because they are
hostile in their minds towards God. Their heart must be changed.
God has certainly blessed you!!

Yes, they have no excuse, Romans 1 makes that quite clear.. They know what they are doing. and always want to blame us,, Well that will not get them very far on judgment day..

I am glad God worked on me, to humble me 40 years ago. Although I had to pray about 30 times before I finally understand what it was all about, and just sat and talked with God.. and He saved me..
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Do tell. What is my gospel? I would love for you to tell me (I guarantee you do not know)

it is very evident to me your pride is deep. You can not even have a conversation with someone without continually attacking them


lol..

One thing is evident, you will only see what you want to see

Those people who left egypt. they were unbelievers, they complained, they so wanted to go back to Egypt. they even had Aaron create a Golden calf when Moses disappeared for a few days. In fact, God said quite clearly. they did not enter his rest.

and you want to use that to prove your point?

Thats ok, I know it proves my point, He rescued them ALL.. not just some of them, But not every trusted him, so while they were rescued from egypt. they did not enter the promised land, they died condemned sinners out in the wilderness.

You still have refused to mention Moses and the serpent. and how it was able to save everyone, But only those who believed were saved

See how you pick and chose.

You should give it up man, Your hurting yourself

Bring it on my friend, Your not the first person who thought he was going to "school" me..
I told you why for now, I'm not going to address your non sequitar. It has nothing to do with the topic of :For whom did Christ die? Besides, you wanted me to deal with Jn 3:16, right. I'll get to it.

As far as many of the redeemed Israelites not entering the Land, what is your point exactly? Even AFTER they entered the Land the became more wicked than previously! Are you ignorant of Israel's history? Don't you know they were largely an apostate nation? That they were punished severely by God three time during their history!?

And are you ignorant of Typology? Don't you know that Israel is a type of Church? That Israel had its share of "tares" as the Church does today? Do you even know what Jesus meant by the term "tares"? Do you understand that God plants wheat while the devil plants tares? And that this is all part of God's plan -- both under the Old Covenant and now under the New?

And I see from you last snide and smug remark that you pride yourself on your knowledge of scripture?

"Bring it on my friend, Your not the first person who thought he was going to "school" me.."

You should be the last one to talk of anyone's pride! If you're half as smart as you think you, why didn't you answer my last question re God hating, despising and abhorring sinners? Are you aware of this fact? If so, how do you reconcile your distributive sense understanding of Jn 3:16 with this contradictory fact?

For that matter, how do you reconcile Jn 3:16 with the fact that God "hated" Egypt (a type of world ruled by Satan) and provided no salvific remedy for them? God rescued only his chosen, covenant people, so how does all this square with your understanding of Jn 3:16?

And since you're such a bible whiz, I take it that you know that God put enmity between Egypt and the Israelites, right? And that He turned Egypt's hearts to hate his chosen people? And do you know of any other people with whom God put enmity between them and the devil?


 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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I told you why for now, I'm not going to address your non sequitar.
So your just a troll.

You tell me I have a false gospel and when I ask you to prove your accusation and that you even know my gospel. It is not valid.

Dude, good day. You have nothing to offer me.

I leave you to your hypocrite of a God.

I will serve the God of heaven, who loves all people. and will get his greatest glory in the end, when even those he has to send to eternal darkness cannot blame him, because he gave them every opportunity. He died for them, they rejected him
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Since I did a series of posts on Jn 3:16 on another thread, I will simply copy and paste some of those posts here prior to me creating new material. This next post I wrote back in April of this year:

Because the Text is meant to show the process of God but the usage of some words reveal you are attempting to make into a LAW when there's no such intention.


You are taking the usage of "???????" to create a meaning not intended.


Kind of like John 3:16 usage of "world" and turning it into only the saved when it means the entire world.

+

Whosoever to mean someone specific.

I responded:

"Whosoever" means all who believe, according to the context.

But beyond that the "world" to the mindset of ancient Jews meant only Gentile Nations, as explained previously! The ancient Jews never thought of themselves as being part of the world of Gentiles. The ancient Jews disassociated themselves from the Gentile nations; for all Gentiles were unclean, uncircumcised and unholy. Therefore, just by this fact alone, the term "world" in Jn 3:16 must be understood in the same way as John's original audience -- as being used in the limited sense.


Moreover, John proves this fact conclusively later on in 1Jn 2:2 whereby he makes a distinction between himself and his primarily Jewish audience and the world. Since John excludes himself and his Jewish audience from the world, then the phrase "whole world" can only be logically understood in the limited sense to mean Gentile nations. And that is the way it's used also in Jn 3:16. No ancient Jew would have ever thought of the nation of Israel as being part of the world of Gentiles! Israel was the chosen nation of God; the Gentile nations were totally excluded from the covenant relationship that the nation of Israel exclusively had with God.

So, yes, the "whosoever" of Jn 3:16 is referring to Gentile believers who comprise the world-- not the Jews. The "whosoever" qualifies the noun "world".

Also, this interpretation doesn't present any contradictions with other scriptures the way a universal interpretation does. God most emphatically does not love each and every person in the world per a large hosts of OT scriptures.

And this interpretation is in sync with the Last Supper passages that teach that Jesus laid down his life for many or for you (the disciples in the upper room with Him). See Mat 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 22:19. So, how in the real world does "many" = all in the world in the distributive sense?

And the proper interpretation of Jn 3:16 explains nicely why Jesus explicitly excluded the world in his High Priestly prayer to his Father (Jn 17:9). Jesus' prayer is limited for his elect because this is for whom he died -- per Jesus' own words at the Last Supper.

None of what I just wrote presents any problem whatsoever with any scripture.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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So your just a troll.

You tell me I have a false gospel and when I ask you to prove your accusation and that you even know my gospel. It is not valid.

Dude, good day. You have nothing to offer me.

I leave you to your hypocrite of a God.

I will serve the God of heaven, who loves all people. and will get his greatest glory in the end, when even those he has to send to eternal darkness cannot blame him, because he gave them every opportunity. He died for them, they rejected him
No, I just don't do non sequitars. And, yes, your understanding the gospel is false because you see salvation as a "business" transaction -- a sort of contract between God and man whereby after man fulfills his obligation to the contract (exercises his "free" will to believe the gospel and repent of his sins), God is bound to fulfill his end of the bargain by saving him. To you salvation is merely a quid pro quo arrangement between the Divine and his clay pots. You see man as being in complete control of his eternal destiny, which in itself contadicts numerous scriptures. Therefore, your version of the gospel is a complete lie!

Have a nice day.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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No, I just don't do non sequitars. And, yes, your understanding the gospel is false because you see salvation as a "business" transaction -- a sort of contract between God and man whereby after man fulfills his obligation to the contract (exercises his "free" will to believe the gospel and repent of his sins), God is bound to fulfill his end of the bargain by saving him. To you salvation is merely a quid pro quo arrangement between the Divine and his clay pots. You see man as being in complete control of his eternal destiny, which in itself contadicts numerous scriptures. Therefore, your version of the gospel is a complete lie!

Have a nice day.
You just proved my point you have not a clue what I believe. And your in error you did what many do and have what you are told we believe
good day sir. I will stop
Feeding the troll who thinks he knows it all. I will pray for you however
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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You just proved my point you have not a clue what I believe. And your in error you did what many do and have what you are told we believe
good day sir. I will stop
Feeding the troll who thinks he knows it all. I will pray for you however
Quit trying to deceive us. Of course, the version of the gospel you believe is slanted towards Arminianism, which is basically the system of theology that I described earlier. And Arminians are huge believers in "free" will - and even the sovereignty of man's "free" will! :rolleyes: And that God is this Cosmic Being who can be likened to an EOE (Equal Opportunity Employer) who would never do for one what he wouldn't do for all, etc., for that would be totally unjust of Him. And the last thing Arminians believe is that an individual's salvation is entirely a supernatural act of God from beginning to end! And above all else, they believe that all men are in charge of their eternal destiny. These things I just outlined forms the core basis to their heretical soteriology since everyone one of them is a lie.