Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

It strikes me that God will grant mercy on whomsoever, and no one can object, for any reason. And there's no need to induce an 'and I'll condemn whomsoever I will condemn, since that determination is given as 'those who do not believe.' While your implication is valid, there is an presumption baked in that, necessarily, there's absolutely no reason behind God's choice other than 'because He wants to.' This characterizes God as some sort of immature child.

Or...Sovereign. The other things you shared I haven't spoken to. Like many, you seem to ascribe things that haven't been addressed.

 

[cv5]

Cameron where are you learning this stuff from ?

They are trotting out standardized Reformed cookie-cutter doctrine.
I wonder: should they disagree with it......do they risk excommunication?

 

[Magenta]

The beauty of phones excuse my typos... Especially that last sentence which should have read as if it were calvinists who were against it.

 

[Cameron143]

That man has always been given a choice by God an informed choice of good and evil and he lets us choose ….

Where do you find this in scripture? I can easily show from history that this is false.

 

[Rufus]

Eisegesis again and again.
He veiled His identity not the Gospel.

No matter what you say, the doctrine you promote is a stain on the character of God who leaves people in their sin because He denies them the ability to believe the Gospel message.

And no this is not to His glory, and it also not His sovereign will .... Sovereign does not mean all controlling.

Isn't God's grace his own? If so, why can't he give what is his own to whomever he wants? And when is God morally obligated to give anyone his grace? Is God indebted to sinful humanity?

 

[HeIsHere]

Isn't God's grace his own? If so, why can't he give what is his own to whomever he wants? And when is God morally obligated to give anyone his grace? Is God indebted to sinful humanity?

Sorry you have to down grade the Love of God.
It is really sad, try being joyful, it is so much better.

 

[cv5]

That man has always been given a choice by God an informed choice of good and evil and he lets us choose ….

Absolutely correct. Rahab and the Gibeonites were fully informed.
You know, imminent judgement at hand. Miracles that everyone saw and heard.
Fully apprised of how God judged Egypt. God's armies at the gate.

Stuff like that.

And so it is today. EVERYONE is fully informed about those days, the ministry of Jesus, His Apostles, the Church.
The only matter that remains is CHOICE. To CHOOSE Life.

[Jos 2:9 NKJV]
and said to the men: "I know that the LORD has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you.

[Jos 2:10 NKJV]
"For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who [were] on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed.

[Jos 2:11 NKJV]
"And as soon as we heard [these things], our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the LORD your God, He [is] God in heaven above and on earth beneath.

[Jos 2:12 NKJV]
"Now therefore, I beg you, swear to me by the LORD, since I have shown you kindness, that you also will show kindness to my father's house, and give me a true token,

 

[Rufus]

Well, your incurably wicked heart claims to have received GW,
so why is it so difficult to believe everyone else could do so?

Because God gives new hearts to only his covenant people whom he has chosen in eternity. And the new heart He gives is not "incurably wicked".

 

[Rufus]

Sorry you have to down grade the Love of God.
It is really sad, try being joyful, it is so much better.

I didn't downgrade God's love. I upgraded his love and grace to be qualitatively effectual. It's you FWs who downgrade his love to be ineffectual. In fact, it's so ineffectual, so weak, so impotent, so useless that Christ utterly failed to save each and every person in the world which God supposedly purposed for Him to do (Jn 3:17).

And why wouldn't I be joyful over God's gifts of grace, faith, love and life to me? How could I not be joyful!?

 

[HeIsHere]

I didn't downgrade God's love. I upgraded his love and grace to be qualitatively effectual. It's you FWs who downgrade his love to be ineffectual. In fact, it's so ineffectual, so weak, so impotent, so useless that Christ utterly failed to save each and every person in the world which God supposedly purposed for Him to do (Jn 3:17).

Nope He did not fail, of this you can rest assured.

 

[Rufus]

View attachment 276537

The whole reason Paul says that “all are without excuse” is because we all have what is needed to know, understand and receive the truth of God.

Calvinism gives back that excuse by suggesting we are all born unable to willing receive truth because that’s just the way God decreed it to be.
This is not from the Bible.
It’s a false tradition introduced into the church by a former agnostic in the 5th century.
(L. Flowers)

So was Adam without excuse! But how did that work out for him and his progeny and the planet?

 

[Rufus]

Nope He did not fail, of this you can rest assured.

Thanks for you moment of honesty. Good to know you're a Universalist at heart because that's the only conclusion one can reach given the way you FWers interpret "world".

And, yes, Christ failed miserably since scripture teaches that only a remnant here on earth are being saved.

 

[HeIsHere]

yeah God is merciful to you but not to them , Jesus died for you , not for them his blood covers your sins but it’s not for theirs …….

You should really do a study on judgement day bro

It really is so troubling.
Do you notice the same questions trying to trap a person, it is because they think their system has all the answers.

 

[Rufus]

Well, I forgot to change the Scripture citations to the blue format in time, so sue me.

Instead of never-minding, it would behoove you to heed the fact that I have added passages on the website partly because of discussion with you, including:

1. Human nature was created good but not perfect (Gen. 1:31), and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life (Heb. 5:8-9), which moral perfection should be every Christian’s lifelong goal (Phil. 3:12-15). Humans are born selfish but innocent babies until they attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience (normally about the stage of pre-pubescence), comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).

2. This indicates that God graces every sinful soul with the ability or opportunity to understand how to be saved (Matt. 7:7, cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, Eze. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19). Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith (per Rom. 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16 & 5:8-19).

The factual truth is natural/sinful/wicked-hearted people who are inherently hostile to God CAN receive GW/have their heart circumcised, their eyes opened, their ears unstopped and come to the light just as you did and this applies to every morally accountable soul who has ever lived.

I think I understand why you will disagree, but I will refrain from assuming/inferring, which you call lying.

Which makes your god a moral monster! How can he justly condemn any "innocent" baby, infant, toddler or small child who die prematurely to suffer the penalty of death for sins they never committed?

 

[Rufus]

Death was given as the consequence for disobedience/sin right at the beginning. Satan came along and lied about that, and that lie, the lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation, is being repeated to this very day as well.

Proving that the Serpent's seed are alive and well...for now. The seed does as their father does!

 

[Magenta]

Proving that the Serpent's seed are alive and well...for now. The seed does as their father does!

The majority of Christendom has embraced Augustine's view.

 

[Rufus]

Yeah, why would God create the Angels with the ability to CHOOSE to stay with God or leave God but people on earth think human beings don't have the same ability.

Sometimes, the stupid is real.

Yup...it's as real and close as your nearest mirror.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You suggested that I should do a study. Perhaps take your own advice. Are you not familiar with God saying to Moses that He would have mercy on those to whom He would be merciful?

“Perhaps take your own advice. Are you not familiar with God saying to Moses that He would have mercy on those to whom He would be merciful?”

sure I love to read the Old Testament brother so I’ve of course read verses more than that which say the same thing . But I am also aware of the conditions for mercy and wrath he gave moses so I don’t try to make a verse mean what it doesn’t

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Do you see how that’s different from saying “ God randomly without any condition picks one and leaves the other by his Will and they had no choice ? “

He’s always said that doing good will lead to life and doing evil will bring death it’s never changed he doesn’t lie brother

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s always from the start said the same thing

“let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ 55:7

God doesn’t act for us he’s made us able we have to ….

 

[Rufus]

Nope He did not fail, of this you can rest assured.

Then reconcile Jn 3:17 with Remnant Theology which is taught throughout scripture.

 

[Rufus]

“Perhaps take your own advice. Are you not familiar with God saying to Moses that He would have mercy on those to whom He would be merciful?”

sure I love to read the Old Testament brother so I’ve of course read verses more than that which say the same thing . But I am also aware of the conditions for mercy and wrath he gave moses so I don’t try to make a verse mean what it doesn’t

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Do you see how that’s different from saying “ God randomly without any condition picks one and leaves the other by his Will and they had no choice ? “

He’s always said that doing good will lead to life and doing evil will bring death it’s never changed he doesn’t lie brother

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s always from the start said the same thing

“let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ 55:7

God doesn’t act for us he’s made us able we have to ….

So, God's grace has conditions attached to it that obligates Him to save sinners? God must repay sinners for fulfilling those conditions, does He?