Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,436
32,753
113
You are correct! It says that He hardens, He blinds, He stops up the ears........ Lest they should turn and be healed.
We were told a little while ago that that essentially only applies to a few people a couple of thousand years ago.

It is quite preposterous what some present as truth, as if universal axioms are not really universal at all.

What the Israelis went through has no bearing on/nothing to do with - and no application to - modern day existence.

We have evolved! Because according to the free willer, the mind of the flesh is not really hostile to God as Scripture says.

:sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick:
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
22,439
7,674
113
63
“Perhaps take your own advice. Are you not familiar with God saying to Moses that He would have mercy on those to whom He would be merciful?”

sure I love to read the Old Testament brother so I’ve of course read verses more than that which say the same thing . But I am also aware of the conditions for mercy and wrath he gave moses so I don’t try to make a verse mean what it doesn’t

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Do you see how that’s different from saying “ God randomly without any condition picks one and leaves the other by his Will and they had no choice ? “

He’s always said that doing good will lead to life and doing evil will bring death it’s never changed he doesn’t lie brother

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s always from the start said the same thing

let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ 55:7

God doesn’t act for us he’s made us able we have to ….
This goes back to the original rub...there are none that do good. There are none that seek God. This is the condition of mankind apart from God. You give no place to man's condition and so believe man will act in accordance with a will he does not possess. You believe men will respond to the spiritual activity of God with spiritual acumen He does not possess. You believe the fallen natural man has abilities I do not believe he possesses.
In sharing some conditions wherein God exercises mercy, you fail to indicate the difference between those who receive mercy and those who don't. Those who receive mercy are in relationship to God. They keep His covenant, love Him, and keep His commandments. The relationship is part of the old covenant under which God exercises mercy or not depending on the actions of those under the covenant. This, however, isn't the entirety of how God exercises mercy. Not everyone is in covenant relationship with God. Pharoah certainly is not. And mercy was never in view towards Pharoah. God not only decided not to exercise mercy, but He also acted upon Pharoah's heart to preclude any mercy. God needn't harden Pharoah's heart to get His desired ends. He could have left Pharoah to His own devices. So why does God make a point of hardening Pharoah's heart? Why does He make this clear? The verse goes on to say.
So while God is covenantally merciful, He is also sovereignly so.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,588
6,304
113
Now remember, Cameron is one of the chosen few.

Matthew 22:14
King James Version

For many are called, but few are chosen.

IOW, he already knows that his name is in the unopened Book of Life.
I love Cameron he’s a really nice guy with a good peaceful spirit . And Yeah all Of us can get off track and think we understand something better than we do . But I wish he would acknolwedge some of the scriptures oeiple share with him it would add to the things he actually does understand and correct the overall understanding but I digress

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,540
592
113
“So, God's grace has conditions attached to it that obligates Him to save sinners? “

Ummm ?

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


i don’t know I’d say God is obligated to anything what I’m saying is Jesus came to save sinners and his mercy has been offered to all

“For as ye ( gentiles ) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their ( Jews ) unbelief: even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:30-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gods mercy is offered to all people jew and gentile male and female. His grace that saves has appeared to all men

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because the gospel that saves those who believe has been sent to all

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That is to be saved by grace


“that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’d never insist sinners can’t be saved or God doesn’t want to save them all

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


So no I didn’t say anything about Gods obligation I was talking about his mercy being offered to all humanity like it says

the argument seems to be “ is God who makes you believe and not believe ? “ or did he inform us and offer a clear choice of life and death ?

like this

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬

I’m sorry I don’t agree with some of you guys theories but it’s really clear in scripture mankind must choose good or evil and tbat will determine the outcome
In an earlier post you spoke of conditions a sinner must fulfill in order to access God's grace. That kind of vile heresy makes God indebted to repay the sinner for living up to his part of redemptive contract.

And what mankind MUST do and is ABLE to do are two entirely different issues. Israel was REQUIRED to keep the entire Law of Moses; but were they able?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,436
32,753
113
This goes back to the original rub...there are none that do good. There are none that seek God. This is the condition of mankind apart from God. You give no place to man's condition and so believe man will act in accordance with a will he does not possess. You believe men will respond to the spiritual activity of God with spiritual acumen He does not possess. You believe the fallen natural man has abilities I do not believe he possesses.
In sharing some conditions wherein God exercises mercy, you fail to indicate the difference between those who receive mercy and those who don't. Those who receive mercy are in relationship to God. They keep His covenant, love Him, and keep His commandments. The relationship is part of the old covenant under which God exercises mercy or not depending on the actions of those under the covenant. This, however, isn't the entirety of how God exercises mercy. Not everyone is in covenant relationship with God. Pharoah certainly is not. And mercy was never in view towards Pharoah. God not only decided not to exercise mercy, but He also acted upon Pharoah's heart to preclude any mercy. God needn't harden Pharoah's heart to get His desired ends. He could have left Pharoah to His own devices. So why does God make a point of hardening Pharoah's heart? Why does He make this clear? The verse goes on to say.
So while God is covenantally merciful, He is also sovereignly so.

Psalm 14 verses 1-3; Job 15 verse 16 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Man is vile and corrupt.
 
Oct 19, 2024
5,283
1,110
113
USA-TX
I recognize we disagree on this point, but scripture teaches that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. The implication is that the choice is with God.

How do you reconcile verses that speak of God exercising mercy to some but not others?
Yes, it is God's choice regarding on whom to have mercy, and He has chosen to forgive/have mercy on sinners who repent.
Those who freely choose not to repent of sin are justly self-condemned in hell before being destroyed.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
22,439
7,674
113
63
Then what is the purpose of the hearer?
Is the hearer but a mindless power receptacle?
The hearer is the recipient of grace and mercy.

The hearer exists for God; not God for the hearer. And what you actually highlight is the crux of the matter. Some view scripture from man's vantage point, while others highlight God's perspective.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
22,439
7,674
113
63
Yes, it is God's choice regarding on whom to have mercy, and He has chosen to forgive/have mercy on sinners who repent.
Those who freely choose not to repent of sin are justly self-condemned in hell before being destroyed.
Men only freely choose when they have been set free.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,540
592
113
This goes back to the original rub...there are none that do good. There are none that seek God. This is the condition of mankind apart from God. You give no place to man's condition and so believe man will act in accordance with a will he does not possess. You believe men will respond to the spiritual activity of God with spiritual acumen He does not possess. You believe the fallen natural man has abilities I do not believe he possesses.
In sharing some conditions wherein God exercises mercy, you fail to indicate the difference between those who receive mercy and those who don't. Those who receive mercy are in relationship to God. They keep His covenant, love Him, and keep His commandments. The relationship is part of the old covenant under which God exercises mercy or not depending on the actions of those under the covenant. This, however, isn't the entirety of how God exercises mercy. Not everyone is in covenant relationship with God. Pharoah certainly is not. And mercy was never in view towards Pharoah. God not only decided not to exercise mercy, but He also acted upon Pharoah's heart to preclude any mercy. God needn't harden Pharoah's heart to get His desired ends. He could have left Pharoah to His own devices. So why does God make a point of hardening Pharoah's heart? Why does He make this clear? The verse goes on to say.
So while God is covenantally merciful, He is also sovereignly so.
Twelve times in the OT, it is stated that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And three times in the OT it is stated that Pharaoh willingly complied with God's will for his life since he hardened his own heart.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
22,439
7,674
113
63
Now remember, Cameron is one of the chosen few.

Matthew 22:14
King James Version

For many are called, but few are chosen.

IOW, he already knows that his name is in the unopened Book of Life.
Choose yes, few no.
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
1,153
328
83
It’s because of tbey acknolwedge that they have a choice they have to start choosing and begin to take responsability
Odd, how people sometimes don't actually want to be held accountable for believing in God like Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Daniel, and so many more did including the first Christian Martyr Stephen. Instead, they want to blame God for them being a Christian :cry:
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,560
8,936
113
“Perhaps take your own advice. Are you not familiar with God saying to Moses that He would have mercy on those to whom He would be merciful?”

sure I love to read the Old Testament brother so I’ve of course read verses more than that which say the same thing . But I am also aware of the conditions for mercy and wrath he gave moses so I don’t try to make a verse mean what it doesn’t

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Do you see how that’s different from saying “ God randomly without any condition picks one and leaves the other by his Will and they had no choice ? “

He’s always said that doing good will lead to life and doing evil will bring death it’s never changed he doesn’t lie brother

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s always from the start said the same thing

let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ 55:7

God doesn’t act for us he’s made us able we have to ….
[Isa 55:1-3 KJV] 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
1,153
328
83
The determinists complain that rightly comprehending these Biblical "scenarios", these "dramas" are little more than sophistry.

They are not. They are object lessons, they are proofs, they are legal precedent.
Just as weighty and profound as anything else.
Amen Brother, Amen!
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,540
592
113
[Isa 55:1-3 KJV] 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
See what happens when you ignore the NT? There's an invitation for sure in the above passage, but what does John 6 teach? Can anyone come to Christ apart from God's supernatural work of drawing them to Him?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,588
6,304
113
In an earlier post you spoke of conditions a sinner must fulfill in order to access God's grace. That kind of vile heresy makes God indebted to repay the sinner for living up to his part of redemptive contract.

And what mankind MUST do and is ABLE to do are two entirely different issues. Israel was REQUIRED to keep the entire Law of Moses; but were they able?
“In an earlier post you spoke of conditions a sinner must fulfill in order to access God's grace. “

nope my position is Gods grace was offered to all humanity based only upon what Jesus said and did on the gospel

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You might be talking about when I quoted several points when God said this about his mercy ?

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; and repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to be clear thisnisnt a statement I’m making but a statement God made in the ot. It was a response to Cameron pointing to a verse that seems like Gods randomly giving mercy to one without condition and. NOt an other .

the New Testament is when God declared his grace and truth not the ot

“And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My response to Cameron came fro the same place the le whoch he was talking about. For the point God doesn’t randomly give mercy to one sinner and keep it from another he gives mercy to those who love him and those who rebel against him and refuse his call to repentance that’s who ends up receiving his wrath

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9, 11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We provoke Gods wrath it’s not pre placed on us his dispostion is mercy but then this happens

“I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:2-3, 5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We provoke Gods wrath and bring it upon ourselves because we refuse him when he comes near us with his arms open wide it isn’t what he wills fornus it’s what we will against his true word of warning
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
1,153
328
83
Yup...it's as real and close as your nearest mirror. :coffee:
Me before the firing squad: I chose to follow Jesus so hold me 100% accountable!

Reformed before firing squad: God made me a Believer I had nothing to do with it so blame God not me!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,560
8,936
113
Now remember, Cameron is one of the chosen few.

Matthew 22:14
King James Version

For many are called, but few are chosen.

IOW, he already knows that his name is in the unopened Book of Life.
More Biblical illiteracy from the super-determinists.

******************************

The King in the parable clearly represents God, who extends the initial invitation to the wedding banquet. The verb κεκλημένους (perfect passive participle) indicates that the guests were already invited long before the banquet was ready. This implies that God had extended His invitation to His chosen people (the Israelites) throughout history. The perfect tense emphasizes a completed action with ongoing relevance — they were invited in the past, and that invitation still stands.

2. Who Does the Choosing?

The phrase “few are chosen” does not imply that God is selectively choosing a few from among the invited. Instead, it reflects the response of the invitees themselves. The Greek phrase ὀλίγοι ἐκλεκτοί (“few are chosen”) consists of two adjectives functioning as nouns, emphasizing the number of those who actually responded properly to the invitation.

Thus, the “choosing” in this context refers to those who chose to attend the banquet with the proper heart and preparation. The parable emphasizes that being called or invited by God does not automatically grant entrance to the Kingdom; it requires a WILLING and appropriate response from those invited.