Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The choice given was to eat of any tree but one, that forbidden tree being the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2 verse 17
Adam being of the flesh makes me wonder, I mean, people say all the time that his will was free, yet
he had not eaten of the Tree of Life, and surely we understand that as a type of Christ? He chose to eat
of death, which is a desire of the flesh, which Christ alone frees us from, and I venture to say the evil
he came to know was in his own self, for he already knew good in knowing God.
James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .
Genesis 2 verse 17
Adam being of the flesh makes me wonder, I mean, people say all the time that his will was free, yet
he had not eaten of the Tree of Life, and surely we understand that as a type of Christ? He chose to eat
of death, which is a desire of the flesh, which Christ alone frees us from, and I venture to say the evil
he came to know was in his own self, for he already knew good in knowing God.
James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .
The choice given was to eat of any tree but one, that forbidden tree being the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:17
Adam being of the flesh makes me wonder, I mean, people say all the time that his will was free, yet
he had not eaten of the Tree of Life, and surely we understand that as a type of Christ? He chose to eat
of death, which is a desire of the flesh, which Christ alone frees us from, and I venture to say the evil
he came to know was in his own self, for he already knew good in knowing God.
James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .
Genesis 2:17
Adam being of the flesh makes me wonder, I mean, people say all the time that his will was free, yet
he had not eaten of the Tree of Life, and surely we understand that as a type of Christ? He chose to eat
of death, which is a desire of the flesh, which Christ alone frees us from, and I venture to say the evil
he came to know was in his own self, for he already knew good in knowing God.
James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .
“And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 18:2-6, 10 KJV
“Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.”
Matthew 19:13-15 KJVI’m
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 18:2-6, 10 KJV
“Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.”
Matthew 19:13-15 KJVI’m
All life lives by virtue of God's goodness and grace. Adam received the breath of life just as the animals did. What Adam was told was that in dying, you shall die. The process of physical death started, which took centuries to complete. After the flood, God shortened man's days. In disobedience, Adam became a child of wrath, which is the nature we inherit from him. I believe Adam would have had to have eaten from the Tree of Life to have the indwelling Spirit. That did not happen. Some postulate that in order for Adam to be alive at all he would have had to have eaten from the Tree of Life, but clearly that is wrong, or all would have already eaten of the Tree of Life just to be breathing, and we know that is simply not true. He was as much in need of Spiritual rebirth as we are.
Yup. The potter and clay imagery in Romans 9 intentionally derives from Jerimiah 18.
And both instances the narrative is dealing with the NATION ISRAEL as regards God dealing with their failure.
Pauls introduction to his pleadings in Romans 9 cannot make this point more clear.
[Rom 9:1 KJV]
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[Rom 9:2 KJV]
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[Rom 9:3 KJV]
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[Rom 9:4 KJV]
Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
[Rom 9:5 KJV]
Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
And both instances the narrative is dealing with the NATION ISRAEL as regards God dealing with their failure.
Pauls introduction to his pleadings in Romans 9 cannot make this point more clear.
[Rom 9:1 KJV]
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[Rom 9:2 KJV]
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[Rom 9:3 KJV]
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[Rom 9:4 KJV]
Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
[Rom 9:5 KJV]
Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
-
2
- Show all
i think your confusing Gods foreknowledge with his Will to be honest .
to be clear your argument is God is who’s behind this and he blames others and destroys them for what he did by his Will ?
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
( this corruption of man is Gods own doing And purpose and will he meant to repent and drive his own heart by making us wicked ? )
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. A
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
( but god is behind this tbough his Will is that we corrupt his way upon the earth and repent him grieve his heart make him regret creating us and then destroy us ? )
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 12-13 KJV
your saying God deceived them and caused them to fall by his Will ? And then punishes Satan after blaming him for it ? Then punishing Adam and Eve for thier part but really it’s all just gods will and his plan for them ? then he blames mankind for the wickedness in earth and corrupting his ways in earth and decides to destroy them after repenting for creating them and giving his own heart ?
that’s really a confusing pan if you ask me and not at all the God I know he does t blame others for his doing he doesn’t judge others for what he did and certainly isn’t a puppet master
to be clear your argument is God is who’s behind this and he blames others and destroys them for what he did by his Will ?
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
( this corruption of man is Gods own doing And purpose and will he meant to repent and drive his own heart by making us wicked ? )
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. A
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
( but god is behind this tbough his Will is that we corrupt his way upon the earth and repent him grieve his heart make him regret creating us and then destroy us ? )
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 12-13 KJV
your saying God deceived them and caused them to fall by his Will ? And then punishes Satan after blaming him for it ? Then punishing Adam and Eve for thier part but really it’s all just gods will and his plan for them ? then he blames mankind for the wickedness in earth and corrupting his ways in earth and decides to destroy them after repenting for creating them and giving his own heart ?
that’s really a confusing pan if you ask me and not at all the God I know he does t blame others for his doing he doesn’t judge others for what he did and certainly isn’t a puppet master
We do know that Pharaoh hardened his heart because the Torah speaks of it several times including that God took advantage of the fact that Pharaoh would harden his heart.
I meant in Romans that Paul [as Saul and Pharisee of Pharisee] knows his readers are familiar with this concept. I am positive Paul would shake his head at how you deflect the fact we know because the Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart long before God did.
I meant in Romans that Paul [as Saul and Pharisee of Pharisee] knows his readers are familiar with this concept. I am positive Paul would shake his head at how you deflect the fact we know because the Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart long before God did.
My Brother has been given 3 -9 months and did in law less than three. I’ve been visiting my little brother twice a week. He’s really not good it has moved to his lungs so he has just a terrible time it’s hard really hard one .
I appreciate any prayers and the concern bro my family is really taking a hard hit at the moment
I appreciate any prayers and the concern bro my family is really taking a hard hit at the moment
-
2
- Show all
They know this truth and willing to actually build a Doctrine on the foundation of a single example that when you examine that example learn that the person makes the first move before God moves.
It's the most unbiblical doctrine ever created by MAN!
The other equally unbiblical doctrine created by man is being able to work\earn Salvation.
It's the most unbiblical doctrine ever created by MAN!
The other equally unbiblical doctrine created by man is being able to work\earn Salvation.
Because universal axioms such as there are none good mean nothing to you. In your theology the natural man is a good guy. His stony incurably wicked heart is good ground to produce the good fruit of faith through the sheer force of his will while he is under the influence of the devil... Being a lover of darkness, a slave to sin and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, inherently hostile to God and opposed to the spiritual things of God which he can neither receive nor comprehend ... but you have him choosing to believe the gospel which is foolishness to him.
Right he “allows things to happen “ because he gave us agency on earth in the beginning he allows us to choose between good and evil.
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26 KJV
I agree sis but there’s a reason he lets things happen it’s because he gave us agency in the matter so you see here why it happened the causation you can see God didn’t purpose and Will this homself is my point but man’s dominion and actions has a role in it
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ( god allowed this to happen because he gave man dominion on earth and freedom )
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
( to me this sort of tells us this is not Gods Will but thier corruption has provoked his grief and wrath )
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
( god didn’t corrupt it we did he allows it because tbats how not works he watches man on the earth and tries thier hearts and lives )
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. ( god didn’t corrupt the earth we did )
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; ( we did that with our agency and yes god allows it we had the dominion ) and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-6, 11-13 KJV
I totally agree God allowed it and that God allows things that happen because of his design and mans agency within it still
My point is he didn’t cause and purpose it he does t cause and purpose all things that happen he allows it indeed until the Havest . Within Gods plan mankknd has a part and role special and dofferent from every creature and we failed in our part and corrupted his creation
God is soveriegn and when he gives dominion to man that stands amd has an impact on what happens on earth and what’s going to cause it . he allows things because he honors man’s place within his design it until his wrath is provoked and comes the Harvest
i agree that he allows things even still that he’s not willing and causing
Like when someone harms a child . That’s not Gods Will but he’s allowing earth to go on u til the end willing that we would repent and be saved . In the end he will right all the wrongs the things that weren’t his Will will receive recompense them but he allows man to choose now
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26 KJV
I agree sis but there’s a reason he lets things happen it’s because he gave us agency in the matter so you see here why it happened the causation you can see God didn’t purpose and Will this homself is my point but man’s dominion and actions has a role in it
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ( god allowed this to happen because he gave man dominion on earth and freedom )
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
( to me this sort of tells us this is not Gods Will but thier corruption has provoked his grief and wrath )
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
( god didn’t corrupt it we did he allows it because tbats how not works he watches man on the earth and tries thier hearts and lives )
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. ( god didn’t corrupt the earth we did )
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; ( we did that with our agency and yes god allows it we had the dominion ) and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-6, 11-13 KJV
I totally agree God allowed it and that God allows things that happen because of his design and mans agency within it still
My point is he didn’t cause and purpose it he does t cause and purpose all things that happen he allows it indeed until the Havest . Within Gods plan mankknd has a part and role special and dofferent from every creature and we failed in our part and corrupted his creation
God is soveriegn and when he gives dominion to man that stands amd has an impact on what happens on earth and what’s going to cause it . he allows things because he honors man’s place within his design it until his wrath is provoked and comes the Harvest
i agree that he allows things even still that he’s not willing and causing
Like when someone harms a child . That’s not Gods Will but he’s allowing earth to go on u til the end willing that we would repent and be saved . In the end he will right all the wrongs the things that weren’t his Will will receive recompense them but he allows man to choose now