Understanding God’s election

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Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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Cameron143 said:
There is no foundation for the book being spoken of as the book of the living. There is no scripture that ever introduces a book of the living. You have to assume that into the passage.
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Yeah who would think the book of the living that he wrote and blots sinners out of ….is related to the book of life he wrote and warns about people being blotted out of for transgression….

abut there’s no scripture saying the book of the living is the book of life ! We spin in so many circles in this place

I’m sure this doesn’t have a thing to do with it either because it doesn’t say book of life

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Probably not related to the great tribulation or resurrection or book of life …
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Pilgrimshope said:
Yeah who would think the book of the living that he wrote and blots sinners out of ….is related to the book of life he wrote and warns about people being blotted out of for transgression….

abut there’s no scripture saying the book of the living is the book of life ! We spin in so many circles in this place

I’m sure this doesn’t have a thing to do with it either because it doesn’t say book of life

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Probably not related to the great tribulation or resurrection or book of life …
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Alot here and would require alot of explanation so I'll bid you grace and peace.
 
J

John146

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Rufus said:
That depends entirely on the context of any given passage. For example, Jesus did not pray for the "world" in Jn 17:9 (for which he supposedly loves and died for!) because believers, like their Savior, are not OF this world even though they are in it. On the other hand, the "world" in such passages as Jn 3:16, 1Jn 2:2, etc. speak to the realm of Gentile believers who were rescued from this world of darkness but of course are still in it until they die. Therefore, the "kosmos" (world) must be understood paradoxically. No true believer (Jew or Gentile) is OF this world, even though all believers remain IN the world until they die.
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Nice dance...
 
R

Rufus

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Mouse_Cheeks said:
I don't believe unbievers have God's laws written on their hearts. How could they? We're told God does not hear the prayers of sinners. See John 9:31.

And, that the natural man cannot understand the things of God. They are foolishness to them.

As to Sabbath, I don't think I can say those who recognize the Sabbath and live their faith as such are wrong to do so.
God certainly doesn't forbid it so how could I judge?
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All of God's moral agents know God's laws intuitively; for He has written the works of the His law upon their hearts (Rom 2:14-15). This is what us moral beings by nature and accounts for how we all intuitively know right from wrong.
 
M

Mouse_Cheeks

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Rufus said:
All of God's moral agents know God's laws intuitively; for He has written the works of the His law upon their hearts (Rom 2:14-15). This is what us moral beings by nature and accounts for how we all intuitively know right from wrong.
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Moral agents. Everyone?

Arent we all dead in our trespasses and sins before the Holy Spirit changes us?
 
R

Rufus

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John146 said:
Nice dance...
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No dance. Context is kinda important for right understanding of scripture. For example, in 1Jn 2:2 the apostle clearly puts the [GENTILE] world on equal footing with the Jews in terms of Christ's atoning work. Christ was the propitiation of John's sins and the sins of his original believing Jewish audience along with Gentile believers throughout the world. If Christ actually atoned for the sins of unbelievers, then all the world would be saved.

For your info, if you do a deep dive into the Gr. term "kosmos" (world), you'll find that it can have at least 8 or 9 different shadings of meanings.
 
cv5

cv5

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Cameron143 said:
Man's fallen nature is already contrary to God. This is why a change of heart is necessary to begin with. And I do believe God is just in bringing judgment upon the unrepentant, just as He is just to forgive sinners who confess their sins.
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Adam chose to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, Adam chose to do the RIGHT THING.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself AFTER HE FELL. And then did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan.

Which of course demolishes this "total depravity" nonsense once and for all.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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HeIsHere said:
Just remember God created and is responsible for that fallen nature.
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God defines it, yes. Flesh first, and then the spiritual. Adam chose flesh knowing the consequence.
Just as God created man knowing what choice he would make. And yes, God determined the
consequence of disobedience also, the consequence being death, though the lie at the
heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is being told to this day.
 
cv5

cv5

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Mouse_Cheeks said:
Moral agents. Everyone?

Aren't we all dead in our trespasses and sins before the Holy Spirit changes us?
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These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to take with the hand
    1. to take hold of, take up
********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to take
    1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self
 
R

Rufus

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Mouse_Cheeks said:
Moral agents. Everyone?

Arent we all dead in our trespasses and sins before the Holy Spirit changes us?
Click to expand...
You're confusing two different issues! Rom 2:14-15 doesn't teach us anything about God changing those who have the works of the law written upon their hearts. There's no transforming power in that universal work. It's singular purpose is make all mankind aware of what is right and wrong. If there was any transforming power, there wouldn't be any reason for God to promise under the New Covenant to effectually write his laws upon the hearts of his covenant people (Jer 31:33).
 
cv5

cv5

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Rufus said:
All of God's moral agents know God's laws intuitively; for He has written the works of the His law upon their hearts (Rom 2:14-15). This is what us moral beings by nature and accounts for how we all intuitively know right from wrong.
Click to expand...
Now we have received G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to take
    1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self
================================================================================

[2Ki 6:5 KJV]
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

[2Ki 6:6 KJV]
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast [it] in thither; and the iron did swim.

[2Ki 6:7 KJV]
Therefore said (COMMANDED) he (the Man of God aka the God-Man), Take [it] up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
 
R

Rufus

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HeIsHere said:


Just remember God created and is responsible for that fallen nature.
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The only way God could be morally culpable for man's fallen nature is if he caused A&E to sin. Some day if you ever read Rom 5:12ff. you'll find that Adam alone is held blameworthy not only for the Fall but for all its pernicious and undesirable effects!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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cv5 said:
Adam chose to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, Adam chose to do the RIGHT THING.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself AFTER HE FELL. And then did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan.

Which of course demolishes this "total depravity" nonsense once and for all.
Click to expand...
Your first paragraph is correct. Adam did indeed have free will unencumbered by the effect of sin. The second paragraph is incorrect and nowhere to be found in the text of scripture. What is found is that sin affected Adam even before God spoke with Adam...he hid and covered himself in shame and fear. Not exactly the noble Adam you put forth.
 
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