Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

You asked a question and answered yourself there. Did you confuse your accounts?

No. I gave my own answers based on scripture, compared to Rufus' answer, which like most of his answers, come from who knows where?

 

[Kroogz]

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

John 3:16 does not mention us spending eternity in heaven.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph. 1 does not mention us spending eternity in heaven.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Technically, I agree with you. We will not spend eternity in heaven. We will spend eternity as the body /Bride of Christ. We go where he goes....For ETERNITY.

 

[GWH]

John 3:16 does not mention us spending eternity in heaven.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph. 1 does not mention us spending eternity in heaven.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Also see MT 25:46, 22:29-32, 1PT 1:4, HB 9:15, COL 3:1-4-- but why am I bothering to list anything more than 1CR 15:19?
You are a Sadducee?!

 

[Kroogz]

Also see MT 25:46, 22:29-32, 1PT 1:4, HB 9:15, COL 3:1-4-- but why am I bothering to list anything more than 1CR 15:19?
You are a Sadducee?!

Why would you say that? He essentially teaches what you teach.

You~~It's possible to lose,forfeit or jump out of His hand......and not spend eternity with Him.

Him~~It's possible to lose,forfeit or jump out of His hand.....and not spend eternity with Him.

It's just different time frames.

We, as believers, have eternal life NOW. And WILL spend eternity with Him.

 

[PaulThomson]

Also see MT 25:46, 22:29-32, 1PT 1:4, HB 9:15, COL 3:1-4-- but why am I bothering to list anything more than 1CR 15:19?
You are a Sadducee?!

Why do people simply throw out Bible verse references, without citing the Bible verse content, as evidence for their religious opinions, when those verses don't even mention the words or terms they are claiming they are about?

Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matt. 22:29-32
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

1Pe 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Colossians 3:1-4

3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Co 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
None of these mention living in heaven for eternity.

 

[Kroogz]

Why do people simply throw out Bible verse references,

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This is the rub. The original language BOLSTERS these simple and straightforward statements. The original language EMPHATICALLY bolsters these simple statements. The original, in no way, puts "questions" on these simple statements.

But our intelligence, Presupposition, and biases will find every which way to put them in OUR context.


The simple truth...Someone who believes that believers can come into condemnation and only possibly has eternal life.....Has not heard His word.

That is not loss of salvation or never really saved......They have never heard His word of NEVER PERISH.

 

[studier]

Why do people simply throw out Bible verse references, without citing the Bible verse content,

Or at least format the references so we can take advantage of the recent site upgrade allowing us to see the verse by hovering its properly formatted reference or click the hyperlink. cc: @GWH

 

[studier]

Okay then...does God love anyone in the filial sense? If so, who?

And I take it that you see no difference between God's common grace which generally benefits all men in temporal reality and God's saving grace which spiritually and eternally benefits many men?

And I take it that you see no difference between God's common grace which generally benefits all men in temporal reality and God's saving grace which spiritually and eternally benefits many men?

I'm using some of your terminology for your convenience. My preference is to drop the theological terminology.

I was reflecting on some of this earlier and catching glimpses of other ways to express things Scripturally and to let Paul's prayer sink in and be a recipient of the understanding of Christ's love Paul prayed effectively for all of us.

We've touched on in the past week or so the concept of language of accommodation to help us understand God based upon things we experience in temporal life. I think there are better answers available to us if we shed some things and allow His Spirit to explain them from His Word. IMO we're still scratching the surface of what's in His Word for us.

With that said, and coming back to the surface to answer you, yes, there is a sense of familial love in Scripture. God is our Father. Christ is our first-born brother. We are his siblings and siblings of one another in Him. So, comparing with life as we know it, yes, there is a sense in which the love of our Father for His Children is spoken of in this way. But, back to accommodation, I don't think it's that simple when dealing with God who is Love and with the Love of Christ that surpasses our knowledge which means our intellectual grasp of something.

Basically, the same concepts can be applied to His grace.

 

[Rufus]

I'm using some of your terminology for your convenience. My preference is to drop the theological terminology.

I was reflecting on some of this earlier and catching glimpses of other ways to express things Scripturally and to let Paul's prayer sink in and be a recipient of the understanding of Christ's love Paul prayed effectively for all of us.

We've touched on in the past week or so the concept of language of accommodation to help us understand God based upon things we experience in temporal life. I think there are better answers available to us if we shed some things and allow His Spirit to explain them from His Word. IMO we're still scratching the surface of what's in His Word for us.

With that said, and coming back to the surface to answer you, yes, there is a sense of familial love in Scripture. God is our Father. Christ is our first-born brother. We are his siblings and siblings of one another in Him. So, comparing with life as we know it, yes, there is a sense in which the love of our Father for His Children is spoken of in this way. But, back to accommodation, I don't think it's that simple when dealing with God who is Love and with the Love of Christ that surpasses our knowledge which means our intellectual grasp of something.

Basically, the same concepts can be applied to His grace.

IOW, you really don't know or aren't very sure of the kind of love God has for his children? Would it be a lower grade love than Abraham had for Issac when he went to offer him up to God out of obedience?

Okay...so permit me to reframe my question because you just muddied up the waters a bit. You admit there is a sense of filial love in scripture but earlier you saw God's love in Jn 3:16 only in the general, common, beneficent sense. So, here's the question that is far more restrictive than the previous one:

With what kind of love does God love his only Begotten Son: Beneficent? Filial? Other?

 

[GWH]

Why do people simply throw out Bible verse references, without citing the Bible verse content, as evidence for their religious opinions, when those verses don't even mention the words or terms they are claiming they are about?

Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matt. 22:29-32
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

1Pe 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Colossians 3:1-4

3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Co 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
None of these mention living in heaven for eternity.

I thought you were a Christian!
What is your belief--for the third time?

 

[PaulThomson]

I thought you were a Christian!
What is your belief--for the third time?

I believe Christians base their beliefs on what the Bible says. Not on mere religious traditions. That's why I ask for Biblical evidence from people claiming to be Christians and claiming to be teaching Christianity.

 

[PaulThomson]

IOW, you really don't know or aren't very sure of the kind of love God has for his children? Would it be a lower grade love than Abraham had for Issac when he went to offer him up to God out of obedience?

Okay...so permit me to reframe my question because you just muddied up the waters a bit. You admit there is a sense of filial love in scripture but earlier you saw God's love in Jn 3:16 only in the general, common, beneficent sense. So, here's the question that is far more restrictive than the previous one:

With what kind of love does God love his only Begotten Son: Beneficent? Filial? Other?

Agape love is a love of treasuring that which is inherently valuable in the object of the love. Since Jesus is inherently infinitely perfect and therefore infinitely valuable, God's agape love for the Son is limitless and without any reservations..

 

[PaulThomson]

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This is the rub. The original language BOLSTERS these simple and straightforward statements. The original language EMPHATICALLY bolsters these simple statements. The original, in no way, puts "questions" on these simple statements.

But our intelligence, Presupposition, and biases will find every which way to put them in OUR context.


The simple truth...Someone who believes that believers can come into condemnation and only possibly has eternal life.....Has not heard His word.

That is not loss of salvation or never really saved......They have never heard His word of NEVER PERISH.

What are the tenses of those highlighted verbs in the original Greek text in which God gave the NT? And what is the native sense of each of those verbs in the koinE Greek language?

 

[Cameron143]

Agape love is a love of treasuring that which is inherently valuable in the object of the love. Since Jesus is inherently infinitely perfect and therefore infinitely valuable, God's agape love for the Son is limitless and without any reservations..

The same for those in Christ?

 

[PaulThomson]

The same for those in Christ?

Since agape love treasures that which is inherently valuable, it experiences displeasure in whatever devalues that whch is inherently valuable. So, in the case of creatures, God loves the creature for whatb is inherntly valuable in it, but hates/is displeased with th creature to the degree that it devalues in itself and other creatures that which is inherently valuable. This is why scripture says that God hates sinners, but also says that He loves sinners.

So God's love for the Son cannot be mixed with any displeasure. But His love for creatures can be mixed with some or much displeasure. Even cretaures who are presently totally sold out to devaluing everything God loves, are loved by God for what in them is intrinsically valuable: even if that is merely the repressed potential remaining in them by design to repent and begin to grow toward love and goodness.

 

[bluejean_bible]

John 3:16 does not mention us spending eternity in heaven.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph. 1 does not mention us spending eternity in heaven.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

where then do Christians go when they die if not Heaven?

 

[Cameron143]

Since agape love treasures that which is inherently valuable, it experiences displeasure in whatever devalues that whch is inherently valuable. So, in the case of creatures, God loves the creature for whatb is inherntly valuable in it, but hates/is displeased with th creature to the degree that it devalues in itself and other creatures that which is inherently valuable. This is why scripture says that God hates sinners, but also says that He loves sinners.

So God's love for the Son cannot be mixed with any displeasure. But His love for creatures can be mixed with some or much displeasure. Even cretaures who are presently totally sold out to devaluing everything God loves, are loved by God for what in them is intrinsically valuable: even if that is merely the repressed potential remaining in them by design to repent and begin to grow toward love and goodness.

So...when it says nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, how does that relate to what you just posted?

 

[PaulThomson]

Technically, I agree with you. We will not spend eternity in heaven. We will spend eternity as the body /Bride of Christ. We go where he goes....For ETERNITY.

Well, given that Jesus is now omnipresent, that could be anywhere.

 

[Rufus]

Agape love is a love of treasuring that which is inherently valuable in the object of the love. Since Jesus is inherently infinitely perfect and therefore infinitely valuable, God's agape love for the Son is limitless and without any reservations..

Proof text?

 

[PaulThomson]

where then do Christians go when they die if not Heaven?

At the present time, they do go to heaven whiie they are waiting for the restoration of all things. But that in no way proves the claim that "we will live in heaven, not on earth, for eternity"