Understanding God’s election

[studier]

The "world" God so loves in Jn 3:16 are all the "whosoevers" -- those who will come to believe on Jesus.

Disagree as I already stated.

Our perfect God and Father in love sent His Son for the kosmos just as God loves His enemies by providing the sun and rain for all Matt5:43-48.

This is part of the reason interpreters have noted the different ways John3:16 can be translated.

Ultimately some in the kosmos will have chosen to be thankful to Him for His provision and sustaining of the elements and for sending His Son to save us. Some won't.

Yes, kosmos needs to be considered in context and some basic word searches and studies show this to be the case for anyone who thinks about what they're reading especially having our great Teacher to sit with and ask questions of and then more studied siblings to interact with.

The starting point is the kosmos is the kosmos with all in the kosmos. In some senses it's best IMO to take it back to its base meaning of order - the created order - in which it becomes a pretty vast topic for contemplation.

 

[Musicmaster]

Rather than a clicked response, I'm just letting you know I read your post.

As a Messianic Jew (for lack of better terminology) what teaching ministries do you take in from?

Oh, and I don't identify as a "Messianic Jew." Those groupings tend to be more legalistic than myself. They spend most of their studies in Torah, pass a scroll of Torah around their meetings and kiss it, and various other ceremonial nonsense that I am not at all in alignment. They are very much like their Gentile counterpart that identifies as Hebrew Roots. I have no patience with either.

Just call me an Israeli Biblicist if you feel the need to label others.

MM

 

[Magenta]

Luke 18 verses 25-27 (Matthew 19 verses 24-26, Mark 10 verses 25-27) “Indeed, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

 

[studier]

Sorry, but I'm not sure I follow your question. If you're asking where I get my understanding and beliefs for what the Bible says, I consider it a weakness to rely on any "ministry" for an understanding of what's stated in scripture in its context and through systematic study.

Your question does point toward yet another serious problem as to why there are so many wildly divergent, doctrinal beliefs. It's somewhat mystifying that so many people get their "understanding" or "doctrinal beliefs" from anyone else apart from personal study of scripture. The Bible and Holy Spirit are my source (singular) since the Spirit will never disagree with what that same Spirit inspired to be written.

If you ask where I once was, the answer is Rabbinic Judaism, which is the form of Judaism that replaced historic, ancient or (what I call) Temple Judaism. I've long since walked away from those doctrinal influences, although that background has given to me FAR more respect and understanding of what you people call the "Old Testament." To me it's one continuous narrative with no breaks...other than dispensations. We ALL are dispensational, no matter how much rancor some show toward that term that actually is translated in the Bible a number of times. That rancor only betrays the ignorance of those who have taken such a dislike for it. It's sad to behold the fact that many in here are merely products of the thinking of scholastic and theological slaughter of the texts.

My studies make use of no other materials other than the Bible and prayerful fellowship with Holy Spirit.

MM

Thanks for the explanation. So, it seems you somehow accepted Yeshua is Messiah. Probably an interesting story. I attended for a few years a Messianic Temple - as they called it - taught by a Rabbi who came to believe in Jesus. His teaching was in and through the entire Text in a very seamless way which was better IMO than most Gentile congregations I had experience with. It was an enlightening period I think was the best for me in the sense of assembly. As I recall, all were Jews that came to believe in Jesus and all of them not only had fascinating stories about how it came about, but also continuing fascinating realities about dealing with families and friends.

One comment for your consideration, some of us are not "you people" but your brother in Christ assuming you're in Christ. And some of us have come to the conclusion that much of the divisive teaching of the so-called Church is detrimental to understanding the Text properly. Also, many of us are not so "dispensational" in the way that we throw away the Tanakh. In fact, this is quite contrary to how many view the Hebrew Scriptures.

IOW, rancor from you based in ignorance is not much different from rancor from others based in ignorance.

This thread IMO is about a very divisive topic. Add some Jewish perspectives to it. It's the internet so be prepared for a lot of forms of disagreement. It just is...

 

[Musicmaster]

Luke 18 verses 25-27 (Matthew 19 verses 24-26, Mark 10 verses 25-27) “Indeed, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

Unfortunately, followers of TULIP out there think those verses justify their warped beliefs.

MM

 

[studier]

Oh, and I don't identify as a "Messianic Jew." Those groupings tend to be more legalistic than myself. They spend most of their studies in Torah, pass a scroll of Torah around their meetings and kiss it, and various other ceremonial nonsense that I am not at all in alignment. They are very much like their Gentile counterpart that identifies as Hebrew Roots. I have no patience with either.

Just call me an Israeli Biblicist if you feel the need to label others.

Just call me a Gentile Biblicist. As for the labels, understood. And I agree with you about the directions those groupings ended up taking. My experience in them was decades ago before they really became groupings with developed traditions.

So, besides Israeli Biblicist, do we call you a Christian?

 

[Musicmaster]

Thanks for the explanation. So, it seems you somehow accepted Yeshua is Messiah. Probably an interesting story. I attended for a few years a Messianic Temple - as they called it - taught by a Rabbi who came to believe in Jesus. His teaching was in and through the entire Text in a very seamless way which was better IMO than most Gentile congregations I had experience with. It was an enlightening period I think was the best for me in the sense of assembly. As I recall, all were Jews that came to believe in Jesus and all of them not only had fascinating stories about how it came about, but also continuing fascinating realities about dealing with families and friends.

One comment for your consideration, some of us are not "you people" but your brother in Christ assuming you're in Christ. And some of us have come to the conclusion that much of the divisive teaching of the so-called Church is detrimental to understanding the Text properly. Also, many of us are not so "dispensational" in the way that we throw away the Tanakh. In fact, this is quite contrary to how many view the Hebrew Scriptures.

IOW, rancor from you based in ignorance is not much different from rancor from others based in ignorance.

This thread IMO is about a very divisive topic. Add some Jewish perspectives to it. It's the internet so be prepared for a lot of forms of disagreement. It just is...

No doubt. Views vary across an immeasurable spectrum.

Additionally, when I speak in terms akin to "you Gentiles," that's more of a recognition of the microcosmic bubbles, bandwagons, group-think or whatever term one may ascribe to them, that so many "Gentiles by blood" tend to compartmentalize themselves into as their identity moreso than arising from a systematic, holistic study of scripture. They mostly seem to lean into little to no reliance upon personal study as a means for exercising proper responsibility for what they choose to believe.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[Magenta]

Unfortunately, followers of TULIP out there think those verses justify their warped beliefs.

MM

Unfortunately, Pelagians twist, ignore, deny, and contradict, possibly hundreds of verses to justify their warped beliefs.

 

[Rufus]

Disagree as I already stated.

Our perfect God and Father in love sent His Son for the kosmos just as God loves His enemies by providing the sun and rain for all Matt5:43-48.

This is part of the reason interpreters have noted the different ways John3:16 can be translated.

Ultimately some in the kosmos will have chosen to be thankful to Him for His provision and sustaining of the elements and for sending His Son to save us. Some won't.

Yes, kosmos needs to be considered in context and some basic word searches and studies show this to be the case for anyone who thinks about what they're reading especially having our great Teacher to sit with and ask questions of and then more studied siblings to interact with.

The starting point is the kosmos is the kosmos with all in the kosmos. In some senses it's best IMO to take it back to its base meaning of order - the created order - in which it becomes a pretty vast topic for contemplation.

What I highlighted above speaks to God's benevolence or beneficent love that dispenses common grace for the benefit and preservation of mankind. After all, how could God save such a large number of elect from this world if he didn't preserve his world by his power every single moment of every single day!? But the love spoken of in Jn 3:16 is a familial love, which is covenantal love. God cannot possibly love those with this latter type of love who hate his Son because as stated earlier, there are far too many explicit scriptures that teach who God loves with this familial (or filial) love and there are no scriptures in the bible that teach that God loves his haters in the filial sense.

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

Notice the future tense of part "b" of this text. "He who loves me WILL be loved by my Father...".

And,

John 15:10
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

And,

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

Furthermore, filial love is a particular love, as opposed to God's general benevolence that he has toward all mankind. It's a love whereby the recipients are not only known personally by God and His Son, but as Jesus himself said, he also knows his own sheep by name and His sheep know Him (Jn 10:3, 14). The world at large most certainly does not have this kind of personal, familial, covenant of love relationship with the Father or the Son. Just the three aforementioned passages alone thoroughly refute the Santa Claus drivel of unconditional love!

And lastly and I as I have often stated in the past, Jn 3:16 cannot be understood as God loving all w/o exception because neither God or his Son have ever known the vast majority of the world (if we are to believe Remnant Theology), since God never made a covenant of love with all humanity w/o exception (Mat 7:23). God and his Christ love their sheep, however, in the covenantal sense because they know each and every sheep personally. But that certainly isn't the case with the people in Mat 7:23. How can they love anyone in the filial sense they NEVER KNEW!? (Of course, Rom 8:29-30 clearly bears this precious and incomprehensible truth out since God predestined, called, justified and glorified only those he personally knew in eternity!)

And this last question goes to the HEART of what the Biblical Christian Faith is all about. IT'S ALL ABOUT GOD RESTORING THE RELATIONSHIP THAT ADAM LOST WITH HIM TO THE DETRIMENT OF HIS PROGENY WHEN HE SINNED. It's all about God restoring the Edenic fellowship with Adam's progeny. But the unregenerated are themselves darkness (Eph 5:8) and can have no fellowship with the Light (2Cor 6:14) unless God resuces them from that dreadful Darkness of Death as he did with the Colossian church (Col 1:13)!

So...how are you going to spin these great truths? Are we supposed to believe that God explicitly loves in the filial sense all those who love Him and his Son, and at the same time God also loves in the same sense everyone He never knew and who hate Him and his Son? Is that the contradictory horse pill we're all supposed to swallow?

 

[Magenta]

So...how are you going to spin these great truths? Are we supposed to believe that God explicitly loves in the filial sense all those who love Him and his Son, and at the same time God also loves in the same sense everyone He never knew and who hate Him and his Son? Is that the contradictory horse pill we're all supposed to swallow?

Jesus said, "I never knew you" will be His response to some. How could He have loved them if He knew them not? Just wondering.

 

[Rufus]

Unfortunately, followers of TULIP out there think those verses justify their warped beliefs.

MM

And I would bet you dollars to donuts that detractors "of TULIP out there think their verses justify their warped beliefs", as well.

 

[Rufus]

Jesus said, "I never knew you" will be His response to some. How could He have loved them if He knew them not? Just wondering.

Actually, that will be Jesus' words to virtually all unbelievers since none of them were ever brought into a personal, intimate, loving covenant relationship with their Creator-Redeemer. And don't forget: The path is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, that will be Jesus' words to virtually all unbelievers since none of them were ever brought into a personal, intimate, loving covenant relationship with their Creator-Redeemer. And don't forget: The path is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

Revelation 3 verse 8; Luke 13 verse 24 ~ Behold, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.

 

[GWH]

Since the whole world of UNBELIEVERS hate Christ, then you need to explain how did this world transform its own nature and change its own heart to love him and believe in Him? Did the world of unbelievers give themselves a new heart? Did they circumcise their own hearts? Did they instill the fear of the Lord into themselves? Did they raise themselves from the dead? Just how did natural born haters of God turn themselves into lovers of God and his Son?

I just explained: God is love and works lovingly through those who seek/repent/cooperate with His HS.
What is YOUR explanation?

 

[GWH]

Oh, and I don't identify as a "Messianic Jew." Those groupings tend to be more legalistic than myself. They spend most of their studies in Torah, pass a scroll of Torah around their meetings and kiss it, and various other ceremonial nonsense that I am not at all in alignment. They are very much like their Gentile counterpart that identifies as Hebrew Roots. I have no patience with either.

Just call me an Israeli Biblicist if you feel the need to label others.

MM

Don't let Judaizers prevent you from acknowledging that
all who have faith like Abraham are spiritual = Messianic Jews per RM 2:28-29.

(Also, "don't let the devil have all the good music" :^)

 

[studier]

What I highlighted above speaks to God's benevolence or beneficent love that dispenses common grace for the benefit and preservation of mankind. After all, how could God save such a large number of elect from this world if he didn't preserve his world by his power every single moment of every single day!? But the love spoken of in Jn 3:16 is a familial love, which is covenantal love. God cannot possibly love those with this latter type of love who hate his Son because as stated earlier, there are far too many explicit scriptures that teach who God loves with this familial (or filial) love and there are no scriptures in the bible that teach that God loves his haters in the filial sense.

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

Notice the future tense of part "b" of this text. "He who loves me WILL be loved by my Father...".

And,

John 15:10
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

And,

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

Furthermore, filial love is a particular love, as opposed to God's general benevolence that he has toward all mankind. It's a love whereby the recipients are not only known personally by God and His Son, but as Jesus himself said, he also knows his own sheep by name and His sheep know Him (Jn 10:3, 14). The world at large most certainly does not have this kind of personal, familial, covenant of love relationship with the Father or the Son. Just the three aforementioned passages alone thoroughly refute the Santa Claus drivel of unconditional love!

And lastly and I as I have often stated in the past, Jn 3:16 cannot be understood as God loving all w/o exception because neither God or his Son have ever known the vast majority of the world (if we are to believe Remnant Theology), since God never made a covenant of love with all humanity w/o exception (Mat 7:23). God and his Christ love their sheep, however, in the covenantal sense because they know each and every sheep personally. But that certainly isn't the case with the people in Mat 7:23. How can they love anyone in the filial sense they NEVER KNEW!? (Of course, Rom 8:29-30 clearly bears this precious and incomprehensible truth out since God predestined, called, justified and glorified only those he personally knew in eternity!)

And this last question goes to the HEART of what the Biblical Christian Faith is all about. IT'S ALL ABOUT GOD RESTORING THE RELATIONSHIP THAT ADAM LOST WITH HIM TO THE DETRIMENT OF HIS PROGENY WHEN HE SINNED. It's all about God restoring the Edenic fellowship with Adam's progeny. But the unregenerated are themselves darkness (Eph 5:8) and can have no fellowship with the Light (2Cor 6:14) unless God resuces them from that dreadful Darkness of Death as he did with the Colossian church (Col 1:13)!

So...how are you going to spin these great truths? Are we supposed to believe that God explicitly loves in the filial sense all those who love Him and his Son, and at the same time God also loves in the same sense everyone He never knew and who hate Him and his Son? Is that the contradictory horse pill we're all supposed to swallow?

Part of the disagreements between traditions is shown in how they "spin" a.k.a. interpret differently.

At the end of all this you're simply saying/spinning/interpreting John3:16 as filial - familial - covenantal vs. beneficent, when another spin/interpretation says it's beneficent and includes Matt5:44-48 as I previously stated.

In the end the spin/interpretation of beneficent encompasses all, which IMO better represents that God is Love and that we are all still in need of Paul's prayer in Eph3:14-21 in regard to the love of Christ.

In continuing disagreement with your spin/interpretation, I remain with the spin/interpretation that kosmos in John3:16 is all men.

 

[PaulThomson]

Not so. For example:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:3-7 NKJV)

Adoption as sons of God, redemption, forgiveness of sins, they are all to do with salvation, not with service. Similarly in this passage:

“Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” (Ro 11:5-7 NKJV)

He specifies that he is not talking about service there - "not of works."

He is saying in Rom. 11:5-7 that the selection in grace is not out of works (ex erga) . He is not saying the election in grace is not into a ministry that will consist of works of service.

Before the foundation of the world, how many humans were in Him? None.
When and how did you become in Him? I became in Him when I put my trust in Him for forgiveness of my sins and chose to follow Him.
Who is predestined to adoption as sons? Those who have become in Him.
When were they predestined to become adopted as sons? When they became in Him.
When were we first saved? When we put our trust in Christ and became in Him.
When will we be adopted as sons? At the first resurrection.
What changed in the relationship when a son was officially adopted in first century? He entered into partnership in His Father's business.
What is the business our Father has been preparing us for following the first resurrection? Ruling with Christ over the earth.
What does ruling mean in Christ's kingdom? Serving.
ERGO: We were chosen in Him for service.

 

[PaulThomson]

Oh...you want a "scholarly response"? Why didn't you say so?

The Body of Christ does not consist of multiple levels of believers. Every single believer is called and expected to serve their Lord and Savior. Every single believer has been given a gift to use in SERVICE to their Lord. Even the entire elect nation of Israel was expected to serve YHWH (Josh 24:15)!

Do you have any more of your wisdom droppings to dig out the latrine?

Who chooses which gifts each believer gets for them to use in the kind of SERVICE he will be doing?

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes, salvation has three time components: we were saved at the moment of repentance/conversion, we are being/remaining saved as we grow toward spiritual maturity, and we will be saved when we are resurrected to heaven.

Resurrected to heaven? What? What about the millennial reign on earth with Christ after the resurrection? and what about the church descending from the new heaven to dwell on the new earth after the second resurrection?

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, salvation has three time components: we were saved at the moment of repentance/conversion, we are being/remaining saved as we grow toward spiritual maturity, and we will be saved when we are resurrected to heaven.

There is only spiritual salvation "one born from above" and it is irrevocable and carries forward.