Understanding God’s election
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I'm struggling here, in want of discussing scripture, or at the least a view of scripture, rather than discrediting any particular doctrine. We're going on 570 pages of that. If an observation about elderberries generates further insight, a flying monkey swoops in and disintegrates it with an explanation of pokeweed.
In trying to determine if I have wild grapes growing out of my window well or if it's actually moonseed, but I'm not sure if comparing the difference between them would provide me any better discernment in identifying it. Rather, its potential for additional opportunity for confusion is expanded, since these are almost identical but, inherently, not the same. However, if I learn all I can about wild grapes, then I will do better to recognize even if only a slight detail about a plant that is uncharacteristic of wild grapes and can then eliminate the possibility that this plant is a wild grape and move on to focusing on all I can learn about moonseed.
I think this was the OP's attempt, to learn more about wild grapes, but moonseed is continually added into the discussion.
And, if the conversation concerning wild grapes were allowed to be cultivated unfettered, then everyone would be able to recognize it for what it is, and likewise with moonseed.
But, it doesn't seem that this platform isn very condusive to such an endeavor.
It's great for arguing tho.
In trying to determine if I have wild grapes growing out of my window well or if it's actually moonseed, but I'm not sure if comparing the difference between them would provide me any better discernment in identifying it. Rather, its potential for additional opportunity for confusion is expanded, since these are almost identical but, inherently, not the same. However, if I learn all I can about wild grapes, then I will do better to recognize even if only a slight detail about a plant that is uncharacteristic of wild grapes and can then eliminate the possibility that this plant is a wild grape and move on to focusing on all I can learn about moonseed.
I think this was the OP's attempt, to learn more about wild grapes, but moonseed is continually added into the discussion.
And, if the conversation concerning wild grapes were allowed to be cultivated unfettered, then everyone would be able to recognize it for what it is, and likewise with moonseed.
But, it doesn't seem that this platform isn very condusive to such an endeavor.
It's great for arguing tho.
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Completely agree.
At a very early stage I determined that the best course would be to focus on learning the truth so I could more easily identify the weeds.
It would be great if we all were simply taking every question and contention into the Word and working together to best understand what it says and means in context both close and overall. There are a few who are working at this level in postings for others to see and comment on. But mostly, these platforms are full of just the opposite and for intermingling every type of seed and weed.
One of the more telling things for me is to see repeatedly how many will walk away from actually getting into depth analysis of Scripture. But in some realms this trend was identified long ago especially with the ways various systematic teachings were being done.
Personally, I agree with what @GWH said as can be seen here.
If anything, some of these threads exercise me in the Text which is my favorite activity ground. They also provide some interesting spiritual/behavioral training with both successes and failures. The process of life and continually pulling weeds.
At a very early stage I determined that the best course would be to focus on learning the truth so I could more easily identify the weeds.
It would be great if we all were simply taking every question and contention into the Word and working together to best understand what it says and means in context both close and overall. There are a few who are working at this level in postings for others to see and comment on. But mostly, these platforms are full of just the opposite and for intermingling every type of seed and weed.
One of the more telling things for me is to see repeatedly how many will walk away from actually getting into depth analysis of Scripture. But in some realms this trend was identified long ago especially with the ways various systematic teachings were being done.
Personally, I agree with what @GWH said as can be seen here.
If anything, some of these threads exercise me in the Text which is my favorite activity ground. They also provide some interesting spiritual/behavioral training with both successes and failures. The process of life and continually pulling weeds.
Hah...I see. Your god only works "lovingly through" those who seek him. But not so much through dead, helpless, powerless people who naturally hate him.
I'll stick with the God of the bible, as he is just as righteous, and loving and merciful and compassionate as the Good Samaritan. Your god, though, not so much....
I'll stick with the God of the bible, as he is just as righteous, and loving and merciful and compassionate as the Good Samaritan. Your god, though, not so much....
It is fascinating that some possess a corrupt view of God's perfect justice by claiming that the Lord "sovereignly" chooses to not give many the ability to call upon His name for salvation, and His allegedly THEN holding them responsible for their sins, thus judging them and condemning them to eternal damnation.
This idea that "sovereignty" is some sort of sick license to do whatever one wants, that's just foolishness. I leave that thinking to Hollywood and their superhero-gone-bad thrillers so many of you worship with your money to go and see or buy to have the disc in your homes, corrupting the minds of your children with that Satanic CRAP!
There are things God CANNOT do in spite of this warped sense to "sovereignty." God cannot do what is against His own nature, therefore this claim that rests squarely in the realm of injustice on His part, defended on the basis of "sovereignty," only betrays the corruptions within the unregenerate mind that remains distant and untouched by the true birthing into the mind of Christ...either that, or the enemy of our souls has so filled that mind with his own rebellion that such filling is blocking out the Truth...Truth is a Person rather than a collection of right and proper doctrines, by the way.
Attempts at trying to turn the tables of this by stating that I'm foisting into this my own bias and controlling thoughts over the understanding of God and His nature, remember that this same Jesus who walked this earth referred to all you Gentiles as DOGS! Remember that? He did not say that just to be some big meanie. He said that because of the severe lack of understanding of Him that dominated the minds of Gentiles, and continues to dominate today!
Yes, we Jews rejected Him as our Messiah, but we are still the ones to whom He came to save at the very first because He chose US as His kings and priests to the world, to preach Him, and to bring you Gentiles into the fold of Jews, and today there are pathetic souls of Gentiles who think THEY are His kings and priests that was ONLY spoken in relation to Israel. Your haters of Israel, I have no respect for you to think that YOU have replaced US! You're a pathetic bunch, those of you who embrace that trashy and blind view of scripture!
The Lord's coming to Israel first was not the action of a Lord, King and God who Himself determined who would be saved and who would not! If that were the case, then having us Jews as a nation set apart from the rest of the world to preach His Truth would be a futile endeavor, for such a belief lays waste such efforts if those out there would already be pre-determined as to being saved or lost, irrespective of their own volition, pure trash in theological thinking. No Jewish rabbi I have ever known would ever posit such crappy theology through their teachings of Torah and all the other sources from the prophets that show to us a perfectly just God and Savior whose offer of salvation and stated WILL that ALL men be saved...what could possibly be going through the minds of such warped thinking! It defies reason!
The lack of thinking this through with eyes set squarely upon contexts through systematic study only leads to personal interpretations handed over to them from blind leaders who themselves are perverse, like your Doctors of foolishness like Sproul and MacArthur! The acid of their words only erodes a right and true understanding of the true nature of Christ Jesus. Many don't ever understand the true Gospel that is relevant for today. Sheesh! Some of your people need to crawl out from under your rocks and see the real world outside the bubbles of false teachings.
MM
This idea that "sovereignty" is some sort of sick license to do whatever one wants, that's just foolishness. I leave that thinking to Hollywood and their superhero-gone-bad thrillers so many of you worship with your money to go and see or buy to have the disc in your homes, corrupting the minds of your children with that Satanic CRAP!
There are things God CANNOT do in spite of this warped sense to "sovereignty." God cannot do what is against His own nature, therefore this claim that rests squarely in the realm of injustice on His part, defended on the basis of "sovereignty," only betrays the corruptions within the unregenerate mind that remains distant and untouched by the true birthing into the mind of Christ...either that, or the enemy of our souls has so filled that mind with his own rebellion that such filling is blocking out the Truth...Truth is a Person rather than a collection of right and proper doctrines, by the way.
Attempts at trying to turn the tables of this by stating that I'm foisting into this my own bias and controlling thoughts over the understanding of God and His nature, remember that this same Jesus who walked this earth referred to all you Gentiles as DOGS! Remember that? He did not say that just to be some big meanie. He said that because of the severe lack of understanding of Him that dominated the minds of Gentiles, and continues to dominate today!
Yes, we Jews rejected Him as our Messiah, but we are still the ones to whom He came to save at the very first because He chose US as His kings and priests to the world, to preach Him, and to bring you Gentiles into the fold of Jews, and today there are pathetic souls of Gentiles who think THEY are His kings and priests that was ONLY spoken in relation to Israel. Your haters of Israel, I have no respect for you to think that YOU have replaced US! You're a pathetic bunch, those of you who embrace that trashy and blind view of scripture!
The Lord's coming to Israel first was not the action of a Lord, King and God who Himself determined who would be saved and who would not! If that were the case, then having us Jews as a nation set apart from the rest of the world to preach His Truth would be a futile endeavor, for such a belief lays waste such efforts if those out there would already be pre-determined as to being saved or lost, irrespective of their own volition, pure trash in theological thinking. No Jewish rabbi I have ever known would ever posit such crappy theology through their teachings of Torah and all the other sources from the prophets that show to us a perfectly just God and Savior whose offer of salvation and stated WILL that ALL men be saved...what could possibly be going through the minds of such warped thinking! It defies reason!
The lack of thinking this through with eyes set squarely upon contexts through systematic study only leads to personal interpretations handed over to them from blind leaders who themselves are perverse, like your Doctors of foolishness like Sproul and MacArthur! The acid of their words only erodes a right and true understanding of the true nature of Christ Jesus. Many don't ever understand the true Gospel that is relevant for today. Sheesh! Some of your people need to crawl out from under your rocks and see the real world outside the bubbles of false teachings.
MM
Did God give "the ability" to the fallen angels "to call upon his name"?
And how would God be unjust by giving sinners what they deserve? What have sinners ever given to God that He should repay them (Rom 11:35)? You talk as though God owes it to everyone to give them a new heart and transform their sinful nature into a godly one.
And one of the things God cannot do is fail to execute justice on the earth. God is perfectly just in allowing sinners to remain in the sins and darkness that they love so much. Get up to speed on Rom 9 someday, especially vv. 14-24.
Self-righteous much!? As though apostate Israel wasn't even worse than the Gentile dogs!? (Have you forgotten that to whom much is given, much will be required, cf. Lk 12:48?) Israel was such a vile, wicked, apostate nation, they were punished sorely for the third time in their history in 70 A.D.! Have you forgotten that? And have you forgotten that the same "Jesus who walked this earth" also condemned the nation by taking the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to another nation who would produce the good fruit thereof (Mat 21:43)? National Israel has the dubious honor of being portrayed as the Harlot who sits atop the Beast -- Mystery Babylon the Great - the Mother of Prostitutes - and of the Abominations of the Earth (Rev 17:5)?
God has only ONE elect Nation in this New Covenant economy -- and it ain't Israel. It's the Body of Christ! His Church! And His Church, by the power of Christ's grace within her, is fulfilling national Israel's Old Covenant calling in this Age of the Gentiles as Christ's disciples. Israel failed dismally in her calling to be a faithful servant to YHWH; but where Israel failed, Christ succeeded, since He is the antitype to Israel by contrasts! Christ is the true Israel of God the True and Faithful Servant of God -- and so is his Church by extension.
And how would God be unjust by giving sinners what they deserve? What have sinners ever given to God that He should repay them (Rom 11:35)? You talk as though God owes it to everyone to give them a new heart and transform their sinful nature into a godly one.
And one of the things God cannot do is fail to execute justice on the earth. God is perfectly just in allowing sinners to remain in the sins and darkness that they love so much. Get up to speed on Rom 9 someday, especially vv. 14-24.
Self-righteous much!? As though apostate Israel wasn't even worse than the Gentile dogs!? (Have you forgotten that to whom much is given, much will be required, cf. Lk 12:48?) Israel was such a vile, wicked, apostate nation, they were punished sorely for the third time in their history in 70 A.D.! Have you forgotten that? And have you forgotten that the same "Jesus who walked this earth" also condemned the nation by taking the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to another nation who would produce the good fruit thereof (Mat 21:43)? National Israel has the dubious honor of being portrayed as the Harlot who sits atop the Beast -- Mystery Babylon the Great - the Mother of Prostitutes - and of the Abominations of the Earth (Rev 17:5)?
God has only ONE elect Nation in this New Covenant economy -- and it ain't Israel. It's the Body of Christ! His Church! And His Church, by the power of Christ's grace within her, is fulfilling national Israel's Old Covenant calling in this Age of the Gentiles as Christ's disciples. Israel failed dismally in her calling to be a faithful servant to YHWH; but where Israel failed, Christ succeeded, since He is the antitype to Israel by contrasts! Christ is the true Israel of God the True and Faithful Servant of God -- and so is his Church by extension.
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Ah, but they love to project their lack of understanding Scripture onto God Himself, claiming blasphemous things about Him such as Him being an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will if He acts unilaterally, and of being a rapist, unfair, and on and on. They speak of the differences and parts within one man and act as if, as IF, there is no wholly natural man at all, which would mean all are born again, raised to new life. All!!! They just can't see their folly for the nonsense they spout trying to convince themselves only one person is in view when the whole world stands condemned before God before each is redeemed, individually. Are we to understand from what they say that nobody, nowhere, ever addresses what the man was before being born again? It would seem so. That person just simply does not exist in their view... they absolutely must have that person be good against the weight of the whole Bible saying otherwise, so they can cling to their error in ascribing to the natural what is only true of the spiritual. They need to have the corrupt tree bringing forth good fruit or their whole theology fails.
You know what is strange? I can talk for months about something and people will come at me as if I have said
the opposite of what my posts articulate. I can repeat over and over and over again what the Bible actually says,
and someone will come at me claiming I have said something I have not. Not. At. All. But they want to believe,
and go to great lengths to try to prove, that they are on some high road. I had one guy very recently tell a whole
slew of lies and then he tried to present that to me as if he were extending grace to me. And another who insisted
after he blatantly lied about me, that I should be seeking peace with him, while he continued to lie, and had no
intention of seeking peace with me. I directly quoted the Bible to which he claimed I said God hated humanity.
He keeps coming back to that lie. He likes it. Meanwhile I have never said anything along those lines. So people
are dishonest and delusional about what they are seeking. It certainly is not conducive to discussion.
the opposite of what my posts articulate. I can repeat over and over and over again what the Bible actually says,
and someone will come at me claiming I have said something I have not. Not. At. All. But they want to believe,
and go to great lengths to try to prove, that they are on some high road. I had one guy very recently tell a whole
slew of lies and then he tried to present that to me as if he were extending grace to me. And another who insisted
after he blatantly lied about me, that I should be seeking peace with him, while he continued to lie, and had no
intention of seeking peace with me. I directly quoted the Bible to which he claimed I said God hated humanity.
He keeps coming back to that lie. He likes it. Meanwhile I have never said anything along those lines. So people
are dishonest and delusional about what they are seeking. It certainly is not conducive to discussion.
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The pitfalls to FWT are so numerous, I barely know where to begin. But here's another one that shows just how duplicitous and hypocritical they are! We all know that any self-respecting, card-carrying, man-loving, man-exalting FWer believes that Jn 3:16 teaches that God loves all men w/o exception. They see the term "world" in the text, and voila! It magically means literally everyone under the sun because that's what they read into the text. BUT...when we come across the same term in passages such as Jn 7:7, 15:18-19, etc. then they dance a jig around these kinds of passages. When Jesus talks about the "world" hating Him, that only means a few radical, abnormal, off-the-plantation unbelievers hate Christ; the rest of unbelievers are of the "normal" type and are more kindly disposed toward Jesus. 
IOW, it's never all men w/o exception who hate Christ -- only the tiny percentage of "abnormal" unbelievers. And they believe this in spite of many other scriptures in the OT that teach otherwise, such as Psalm 2, various messianic prophecies, etc.
Bottom line: FWs selectively determine how to interpret the term "world", and at any given time they will make it mean whatever best fits their theological agenda.
IOW, it's never all men w/o exception who hate Christ -- only the tiny percentage of "abnormal" unbelievers. And they believe this in spite of many other scriptures in the OT that teach otherwise, such as Psalm 2, various messianic prophecies, etc.Bottom line: FWs selectively determine how to interpret the term "world", and at any given time they will make it mean whatever best fits their theological agenda.
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Then again, John3:16:
- Is in the context of a certain part of the world at the time and is taken as a principle to now extend beyond that, especially after the Kingdom was opened to the nations.
- Is surrounded in context with a word that most literally translated means "every" or "any" [man] [who believes].
- So, if we're going to begin expressing limitations, then we need to deal with these oft repeated words that don't express limitation in themselves.
- The verse itself is known to contain a translation alternative:
- God so loved the world.... (expressing the degree to which God loved)
- God loved the world in this manner... (expressing the way God expressed His love)
- If kosmos in John3:16 is limited to whom God loves - then kosmos in John7:7 would mean that those whom God loves hate Jesus and His people
- For consistency in John, God sent His Son into a hostile world to provide Salvation for those who would believe in Him - and that same hostile world now remains hostile to Him and to those who are His.
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And that "certain part of the world at the time" would have been Israel who never considered herself to be part of the [pagan, non-elect, unclean, uncircumcised] nations, i.e. the world. (Israel was rescued from such a godless nation by Moses, remember? And the Israelites DROVE out God's enemies (and theirs) from the Land they were to occupy.) Israel always considered herself (and rightly so) to be SET APART from the rest of the nations (i.e. world).The "world" God "so loved", therefore, is indeed LIMITED to the Gentiles nations -- the very same nations that God promised Abraham would be blessed through his seed (Christ), and whose many occupants would become [spiritual] sons and daughters of Abraham.
Kudos to you for being astute enough to pick up on the huge problem that an interpretation that requires a quantitatively unlimited sense to be attached to the term "world" would present to a text like Jn 7:7. After all, we do have very explicit passages that teach us precisely who it is that God loves -- and none of them teach that God loves those who hate Him or his Son. Even the language experts who define terms for us in their various works acknowledge that "world" is often used in a limited, spiritual sense. The "world" God so loves in Jn 3:16 are all the "whosoevers" -- those who will come to believe on Jesus.
Kudos to you for being astute enough to pick up on the huge problem that an interpretation that requires a quantitatively unlimited sense to be attached to the term "world" would present to a text like Jn 7:7. After all, we do have very explicit passages that teach us precisely who it is that God loves -- and none of them teach that God loves those who hate Him or his Son. Even the language experts who define terms for us in their various works acknowledge that "world" is often used in a limited, spiritual sense. The "world" God so loves in Jn 3:16 are all the "whosoevers" -- those who will come to believe on Jesus.
Since the whole world of UNBELIEVERS hate Christ, then you need to explain how did this world transform its own nature and change its own heart to love him and believe in Him? Did the world of unbelievers give themselves a new heart? Did they circumcise their own hearts? Did they instill the fear of the Lord into themselves? Did they raise themselves from the dead? Just how did natural born haters of God turn themselves into lovers of God and his Son?
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Sorry, but I'm not sure I follow your question. If you're asking where I get my understanding and beliefs for what the Bible says, I consider it a weakness to rely on any "ministry" for an understanding of what's stated in scripture in its context and through systematic study.
Your question does point toward yet another serious problem as to why there are so many wildly divergent, doctrinal beliefs. It's somewhat mystifying that so many people get their "understanding" or "doctrinal beliefs" from anyone else apart from personal study of scripture. The Bible and Holy Spirit are my source (singular) since the Spirit will never disagree with what that same Spirit inspired to be written.
If you ask where I once was, the answer is Rabbinic Judaism, which is the form of Judaism that replaced historic, ancient or (what I call) Temple Judaism. I've long since walked away from those doctrinal influences, although that background has given to me FAR more respect and understanding of what you people call the "Old Testament." To me it's one continuous narrative with no breaks...other than dispensations. We ALL are dispensational, no matter how much rancor some show toward that term that actually is translated in the Bible a number of times. That rancor only betrays the ignorance of those who have taken such a dislike for it. It's sad to behold the fact that many in here are merely products of the thinking of scholastic and theological slaughter of the texts.
My studies make use of no other materials other than the Bible and prayerful fellowship with Holy Spirit.
MM
Your question does point toward yet another serious problem as to why there are so many wildly divergent, doctrinal beliefs. It's somewhat mystifying that so many people get their "understanding" or "doctrinal beliefs" from anyone else apart from personal study of scripture. The Bible and Holy Spirit are my source (singular) since the Spirit will never disagree with what that same Spirit inspired to be written.
If you ask where I once was, the answer is Rabbinic Judaism, which is the form of Judaism that replaced historic, ancient or (what I call) Temple Judaism. I've long since walked away from those doctrinal influences, although that background has given to me FAR more respect and understanding of what you people call the "Old Testament." To me it's one continuous narrative with no breaks...other than dispensations. We ALL are dispensational, no matter how much rancor some show toward that term that actually is translated in the Bible a number of times. That rancor only betrays the ignorance of those who have taken such a dislike for it. It's sad to behold the fact that many in here are merely products of the thinking of scholastic and theological slaughter of the texts.
My studies make use of no other materials other than the Bible and prayerful fellowship with Holy Spirit.
MM