Understanding God’s election

[bluejean_bible]

This is key as I read the Text.

We all have to understand and try to deal with omniscience and Him having the capacity and right to handle everyone perfectly and righteously as He wills and sees fit for His purposes. You were probably taught re: the angelic conflict and how God is dealing with many issues on many levels and will be glorified in all respects.

I recall a translational exercise in one of the Thess epistles that made it clear to me that He has the right to use us in a persecution and suffering sense to fill the cup of wrath of those who are hostile to Him. That clear realization brought silence to the room I was in at the time I pointed it out.

There are simply more things going on than we have the capacity to comprehend.

Those that espouse Christian Universalism appear to be Humanist in nature.

Contextually, the reconciliation Jesus taught about pertained to God's Elect.

The judgement seats are spoken of in Revelation.

Those who died in their natural man ,woman,sinner state shall stand before one throne.

And those redeemed in Christ,another.

If the whole worlds people from Jesus time forward were reconciled to God,there would be no judgement of sinners. Because there would be no sinners remaining so to be judged.

 

[studier]

Those that espouse Christian Universalism appear to be Humanist in nature.

Contextually, the reconciliation Jesus taught about pertained to God's Elect.

The judgement seats are spoken of in Revelation.

Those who died in their natural man ,woman,sinner state shall stand before one throne.

And those redeemed in Christ,another.

If the whole worlds people from Jesus time forward were reconciled to God,there would be no judgement of sinners. Because there would be no sinners remaining so to be judged.

I'm happy to look at Scriptures with anyone anytime in context and using logic to ask it and one another as many questions as we can come up with.

I don't believe in what's called universalism re: salvation. But at minimum 2Cor5 needs to be wrung out re: what God did in Christ re: reconciliation. I think @Kroogz may have referred to this section of Scripture.

 

[Magenta]

John 14 verses 1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

 

[bluejean_bible]

I'm happy to look at Scriptures with anyone anytime in context and using logic to ask it and one another as many questions as we can come up with.

I don't believe in what's called universalism re: salvation. But at minimum 2Cor5 needs to be wrung out re: what God did in Christ re: reconciliation. I think @Kroogz may have referred to this section of Scripture.

I think if we look at the teachings of Christ from the standpoint of Election by God's will , it then puts every reference that follows into its proper context.

Firstly, Jesus tells us, no one can come to him unless the father draws them. And of all the father gives him Jesus shall lose none.

Jesus taught in parables so,as he said,not all would understand and come to repentance. This,as he told them, is why his disciples did understand the message of the good news. Because it was given that they should understand.

How is this accomplished? Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 2. The holy Spirit enters in and then we are able to understand God's calling us to himself.

Unless this happens,we remain in our natural mind wherein,as Paul wrote,the things of God are thought to be foolishness.

So,in John 3:16 if Universalism is objected to,as it should be, then the message that God so loved the world that whosoever.... would be referring to those who God's holy Spirit entered and led to understanding and belief.

Because the reference,whosoever, can only be consistent with the rest of the teachings of Jesus as pertains to those whom by God it is given to understand the Gospel.

 

[studier]

Because the reference,whosoever, can only be consistent with the rest of the teachings of Jesus as pertains to those whom by God it is given to understand the Gospel.

I understand the logic, but it breaks down if there is an inaccurate premise or link in the chain.

To be clear, your view is Calvinistic - TULIP? Or some modification?

 

[Musicmaster]

Almost every context in the Bible touching upon election has to do with service, not salvation.

MM

 

[DavidLamb]

Almost every context in the Bible touching upon election has to do with service, not salvation.

MM

Not so. For example:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:3-7 NKJV)

Adoption as sons of God, redemption, forgiveness of sins, they are all to do with salvation, not with service. Similarly in this passage:

“Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” (Ro 11:5-7 NKJV)

He specifies that he is not talking about service there - "not of works."

 

[GWH]

Example - broad stroke?

My opportunity? I was raised by loving Christian parents, attended Sunday School and worship service at least weekly,
always believed in God and Jesus, accepted Jesus publicly by walking the aisle and being WB at age nine, never rebelled,
as a teenager my social life revolved around youth group activities rather than school, then around the BSU at college,
had Christian friends, married a Christian, attended seminary, served in churches and as a military chaplain, and so forth.
(God's plan A for parents/families?)

 

[GWH]

That is subjective.

The truth is OBJECTIVE.

He RECONCILED the world to Himself......OBJECTIVE truth.

So that whosoever(ALL) can believe on Him......OBJECTIVE truth.

We can subjectively say, "well, this happened for me...." Or "That happened for someone else."

But salvation is equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

The exact circumstances of how someone got to the point varies, sure. But the way and the how of salvation is ROCK SOLID.

Yes, but to most of humanity God was only revealed via creation and conscience, then a few via the OT and then many more via the NT, especially after the invention of the printing press made it possible to purchase a copy.

 

[Musicmaster]

DavidLamb, I would hope that you would be more systematic in you doctrinal tool box than to pick one or two verses that seem to back the Calvinistic falsehood of election. A number of other contexts that speak upon election also include the pretext of one's faith. Excluding those texts and their contexts only betrays a bias on your part.

MM

 

[studier]

My opportunity? I was raised by loving Christian parents, attended Sunday School and worship service at least weekly,
always believed in God and Jesus, accepted Jesus publicly by walking the aisle and being WB at age nine, never rebelled,
as a teenager my social life revolved around youth group activities rather than school, then around the BSU at college,
had Christian friends, married a Christian, attended seminary, served in churches and as a military chaplain, and so forth.
(God's plan A for parents/families?)

How about Plan B I think you mentioned - came to Christ later in life in various ways?

 

[bluejean_bible]

I understand the logic, but it breaks down if there is an inaccurate premise or link in the chain.

To be clear, your view is Calvinistic - TULIP? Or some modification?

My observation was derived from scripture. Putting it together to show a consistent narrative that holds in the context of God's Elect.

Sadly, the obsession of seeing anything that references God's Elect as derived from God's word as Calvinism instead, precludes understanding of God's own teaching.

The aversion for John Calvin blinds the mind to the words of Father God.

 

[studier]

My observation was derived from scripture. Putting it together to show a consistent narrative that holds in the context of God's Elect.

Sadly, the obsession of seeing anything that references God's Elect as derived from God's word as Calvinism instead, precludes understanding of God's own teaching.

The aversion for John Calvin blinds the mind to the words of Father God.

All well and good, but do you agree with the Calvinistic teaching re: Election? Or do you have a different view?

Your language re: election and your reference to 1Cor2 seems in line with Calvinism.

 

[bluejean_bible]

All well and good, but do you agree with the Calvinistic teaching re: Election? Or do you have a different view?

Your language re: election and your reference to 1Cor2 seems in line with Calvinism.

1 Corinthians predated John Calvin.

 

[studier]

1 Corinthians predated John Calvin.

Different interpretations postdated 1Cor2.

No straight answer multiple posts, so I'll consider you in agreement with or in similarity to the interpretations of the calvinistic traditions re: election and the natural man.

BTW, I don't like the isms and ists either, but after 11,000 posts, they're kind of a simple way of cutting to the chase.

FWIW, I think that tradition and others here that agree with it re: 1Cor2 are misinterpreting 1Cor1-3 at minimum which in context is speaking about deeper things of God for the glory of His Children that are advanced teaching for Christians. IOW, the natural man can understand the Gospel because God has provisioned it with sufficient power and with His Spirit to make it understandable. The natural man and the baby Christian (as yet) cannot understand these deeper things. That's the basics anyway.

 

[studier]

Limited edit time so one addition; It could also be that the psuchikos-soulish man (translated natural man) is a man so committed to the soul and to the kosmos, that he is not the normal unbeliever who the Gospel can reach.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Different interpretations postdated 1Cor2.

No straight answer multiple posts, so I'll consider you in agreement with or in similarity to the interpretations of the calvinistic traditions re: election and the natural man.

BTW, I don't like the isms and ists either, but after 11,000 posts, they're kind of a simple way of cutting to the chase.

FWIW, I think that tradition and others here that agree with it re: 1Cor2 are misinterpreting 1Cor1-3 at minimum which in context is speaking about deeper things of God for the glory of His Children that are advanced teaching for Christians. IOW, the natural man can understand the Gospel because God has provisioned it with sufficient power and with His Spirit to make it understandable. The natural man and the baby Christian (as yet) cannot understand these deeper things. That's the basics anyway.

You may consider as your preconceived blind bias seeing all Scripture as tainted by Calvinism,as you like.

However,get one thing right.

Your point of view has no comprehension of scripture. Or,my observations.

 

[studier]

You may consider as your preconceived blind bias seeing all Scripture as tainted by Calvinism,as you like.

However,get one thing right.

Your point of view has no comprehension of scripture. Or,my observations.

As I always offer, if you'd like to discuss Scripture in depth and attempt to prove I have no comprehension of it, please propose some Scripture. Maybe 1Cor2 if you'd like and we can go through it verse by verse. I'm happy to learn something I haven't seen before.

I think your observations in Scripture to the limited degree we've interacted are in line with the Calvinist view of election and the inability of the natural man to believe the basic Gospel that Jesus is the Christ. If that's not your view, then I'm wrong only because for some reason you won't state your view clearly. Your choice obviously.

 

[bluejean_bible]

As I always offer, if you'd like to discuss Scripture in depth and attempt to prove I have no comprehension of it, please propose some Scripture. Maybe 1Cor2 if you'd like and we can go through it verse by verse. I'm happy to learn something I haven't seen before.

I think your observations in Scripture to the limited degree we've interacted are in line with the Calvinist view of election and the inability of the natural man to believe the basic Gospel that Jesus is the Christ. If that's not your view, then I'm wrong only because for some reason you won't state your view clearly. Your choice obviously.

Your fixation with Calvinism blinds your ability to understand God's words.

You demonstrate yet again you are not able to discuss my Biblical points because Jesus teachings they escape your attention. And that is because John Calvin is at the forefront of your consciousness.

I wish you the best in your journey.

 

[Rufus]

Sorry. God reconciled the world to Himself.....This is what the Bible and Jesus tells us.

God reconciled every leaf that grew and fell off. He reconciled every animal that has lived and died. He has reconciled every blade of grass you have cut in your lawn.......

He reconciled THE WORLD to Himself. To big for you and me to understand.......But you want to put Him in a truly small box with humanity and only 10-20% of humanity at that.

Your idea of God is so very small.

So...in your world, grass, leaves and animals are sinners? I take it that you're alluding to 2Cor 5:19?

2 Cor 5:19
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
NIV

Where does it say in this passage that God reconciled amoral entities to himself? The passage is clearly talking about human beings! Or are we to believe that the apostles who preached the "message of reconciliation" preached to the grass, leaves and and animals? Do you have chapter and verse to prove that?

Well...I explained numerous times how "world" is used in terms of human beings. It denotes all mankind w/o distinction, and I have plenty of proof texts to back that up.

Again, how could God reconcile all humanity w/o exception when Jesus never knew the vast majority of humanity? Or would have God reconciled those who never belonged to Him?

You see...when you interpret any given passage it must harmonize with the rest of the bible, otherwise you have the Divine Author of the bible contradicting Himself. If God ACTUALLY reconciled to Himself all humanity w/o exception, then all humanity is saved -- just like when God reconciled Eve to himself. Or do you mean that God potentially reconciles each and every person in the world to himself? Or God presents each and every person in the world with the opporunity to be reconciled to Him? It must be one of these since God did not make any redemptive covenant with all humanity w/o exception. And it certainly can't be the New Covenant since that was made only with Abraham's descendants.