Understanding God’s election
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I addressed this some posts back in discussion with @Cameron143 as I recall. If you're truly interested the chain is there. If you need help finding them, let me know.
Although I understand your point, I found the @GWH post to provide good information. There is a process to faith and a major part of it is belief in God which is part of salvation and part of Rom1 as Paul is explaining the Gospel as in part that which saves from God's wrath. This he begins an explanation of by going into how all men have God in knowledge and in rejection of Him and His righteousness they face His wrath and need His salvation in His Son.
There is discussion of salvation in Rom1 connected to belief in God.
There is discussion of salvation in Rom1 connected to belief in God.
This in no way tells me how you are immune from your own accusations, it does not answer why you feel you are above your own standard. The only thing you answered is exactly how hypocritical your standards are. You can do the exact same thing without thinking of yourself are divisive. The fact you can't see this is honestly ridiculous to me, but hey that's just looking at it from an outside perspective, and is also why you can't give me a simple straight forward answer and have to deflect like you did saying "go read the chain I exsplained this", when I didn't read anwhere you exsplaining why Cameron asking you questions is stiring strife, but you asking him questions isn't. That's called hypocracy where I live.
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many can’t accept this part
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Matthew 16:27
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29
see what your saying fits perfectly with what’s being said but what they are saying would make all that totally irrelevant because no one’s actually judged by thier deeds were eaither pre saved already or damned already
ultimately peiple try hard to remove thier own choice and actions from the equation but sadly they can’t in the end
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
you see what I mean if it’s all pre chosen and ordained and appointed then none of that is true that God has clearly said is true
its always about removing our own actions so we don’t need to repent or obey God . We can’t change it it’s all ordained ect
to me it’s high minded to think “ God chose me and made me believe but that other guy god didn’t love him and didn’t give him a chance he just bound him to death by his Will but me he saw enough value to save “
seems like a spoiled entitled child who thinks he has value others don’t but we know God doesn’t have chosen favorites everyones the same to him he doesn’t show respect of persons …which just that sinple repeated statement in scripture shuts down the idea of a chosen group for salvation
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Matthew 16:27
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29
see what your saying fits perfectly with what’s being said but what they are saying would make all that totally irrelevant because no one’s actually judged by thier deeds were eaither pre saved already or damned already
ultimately peiple try hard to remove thier own choice and actions from the equation but sadly they can’t in the end
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
you see what I mean if it’s all pre chosen and ordained and appointed then none of that is true that God has clearly said is true
its always about removing our own actions so we don’t need to repent or obey God . We can’t change it it’s all ordained ect
to me it’s high minded to think “ God chose me and made me believe but that other guy god didn’t love him and didn’t give him a chance he just bound him to death by his Will but me he saw enough value to save “
seems like a spoiled entitled child who thinks he has value others don’t but we know God doesn’t have chosen favorites everyones the same to him he doesn’t show respect of persons …which just that sinple repeated statement in scripture shuts down the idea of a chosen group for salvation
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To me it's high minded to be "I choose God, I chose to come to Him and invite Him into my heart, that God is powerless to save me unless "I" choose to let Him". This also leads to "I choose to come to Him, so I can chose to walk away from Him too". When you think about it deeply you'll see that this way of thinking puts ALL of salvation on us, where we have a reason to boast, and completely strips ALL power from God, giving Him glory for making the way only, after that, according to what you're saying here, all the rest of the credit/glory for our salvation belongs to us who choose the right way. At least for as long as we feel like walking with Him, He doesn't have the power to keep us so we can walk away from His powerless tail anytime we feel like it. Right?
BTW Can we choose to come back again if we walk away? Can we choose to go in and out at will? After all, the power is in our choice right? Not in God at all, right?
BTW Can we choose to come back again if we walk away? Can we choose to go in and out at will? After all, the power is in our choice right? Not in God at all, right?
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@Cameron143
A few observations this morning working through Rom7-8 again:
I also looked again at John3. I think you're missing there also although it's easy to see why you think what you do.
A few observations this morning working through Rom7-8 again:
- Scripture:
- Paul willed to do good Rom7:21 (it's important to note human will here)
- Within him (the man within), Paul delighted in God's Law Rom7:22
- Paul could see that his flesh was batting against his mind (nous) (also important to note nous here) Rom7:23
- Observation: the man within & the will & the mind are all tied together and are distinct from the flesh
- Paul can see that his flesh is taking him captive Rom7:23
- Paul wants to be rescued/delivered/saved from his body of death - his flesh Rom7:24
- Paul knows God through Jesus Christ will rescue/deliver/save him from his body of death - his flesh Rom7:25
- Paul summarizes the problem:
- On the one hand, with his mind (nous) he serves God's Law
- So, the man within, the man's will, the man's mind - the man serves God's Law
- On the other hand, with the flesh (the body of death) he serves sin's law
- On the one hand, with his mind (nous) he serves God's Law
- In Christ Jesus there is no more imprisonment to the above condition Rom8:1
- To cut to the chase re: Rom8:7:
- The mindset (fronēma) (note the different word used here - different than nous in Rom7:23 & Rom7:25)
- fronēma: the faculty of fixing one's mind on something - a point of view - thinking (BDAG) - Liddell-Scott ties fronēma to the will.
- The thinking/will of the flesh:
- Is God's enemy
- Is not subordinate and not able to subordinate to God's Law
- Is God's enemy
- The mindset (fronēma) (note the different word used here - different than nous in Rom7:23 & Rom7:25)
- Observations (speaking of Paul which IMO is not just Paul)
- Although the will and thinking of the flesh is hijacking man's mind
- The inner man - his will - his mind is to do good - to delight in God's Law
- The battle rages but to say man is never able to willfully obey is to completely negate one part of the instruction
- The flesh works to fix the will & thinking on enmity to God
- The inner man - the will - the mind is to obey God and to delight in it
- This is why Paul could say: NET Philippians 3:6 In my zeal for God I persecuted the church. According to the righteousness stipulated in the law I was blameless.
- Paul believed in God
- Paul was in obedience to God's Law and was not saved in Christ
- This is why John said of the Baptist's parents: NET Luke 1:6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, following all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
- They believed in God
- They were in obedience to God's Law and not saved in Christ
- All of them still needed to be saved.
- This is why Paul could say: NET Philippians 3:6 In my zeal for God I persecuted the church. According to the righteousness stipulated in the law I was blameless.
- I think Paul is really just taking us into depth about the workings of the God endowed human conscience and the battle therein while living in a body of death.
- Although the will and thinking of the flesh is hijacking man's mind
I also looked again at John3. I think you're missing there also although it's easy to see why you think what you do.
It is part of the process of coming to salvation through belief in God. Thus, it is part of salvation. Sometimes being too rigid with all of this just creates problems.
I think what I see with @GWH is that he's redeemed a lot of time harmonizing Scripture which he and I agree is part of proper translation and interpretation.
After one has done this in a concentrated manner for some time there is a flow to Scripture that becomes clearer, and the links of concepts and terminology can be condensed in our thinking to see A connected to N without having to go through the process of going sequentially from A to N but knowing there exists B through M in Scripture. God knows everything at once. His Word is written for our incapacities. After some time in the process, we begin to not need all the sequence other than when trying to explain it to others.
This doesn't mean @GWH or any of us have it all correct. But I think you're missing on this one.
I think what I see with @GWH is that he's redeemed a lot of time harmonizing Scripture which he and I agree is part of proper translation and interpretation.
After one has done this in a concentrated manner for some time there is a flow to Scripture that becomes clearer, and the links of concepts and terminology can be condensed in our thinking to see A connected to N without having to go through the process of going sequentially from A to N but knowing there exists B through M in Scripture. God knows everything at once. His Word is written for our incapacities. After some time in the process, we begin to not need all the sequence other than when trying to explain it to others.
This doesn't mean @GWH or any of us have it all correct. But I think you're missing on this one.
You're welcome to your opinion. I don't think you're reading what I suggested and you're not asking for assistance finding the posts, so it doesn't look to me like you really want an answer. Most of your posts I've read or glanced through seem to present little to no Scripture and a lot of opinions and criticisms. What you are calling deflection I'll admit was my not having a lot of interest in chasing down already provided answers to your charges, part of those answers already granting how some to many posts deserved criticism but were posted for a purpose.
If you've got some Scripture to discuss, please present it and I'll consider a discussion. If not, then at this point, please consider this one:
If you've got some Scripture to discuss, please present it and I'll consider a discussion. If not, then at this point, please consider this one:
NKJ 1Cor4:3-4 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
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