Understanding God’s election

[bluejean_bible]

So, what is the source of his righteousness?

Like he said in Genesis. God.

 

[Cameron143]

I love gardening, I could leave the soil as is but I work it to get a better yield in the fruit. Although a sprout has the potential to yield fruit if it has taken root in good soil. The parable of the sower depicts him scattering seed, not working the soil. There is an example of working the soil in that of the fig tree that bore no fruit which the steward wanted to chop down and the gardener pleading for another year and the chance to dig around it.

While I agree that the parable isn't talking about the way the soil becomes as it does, you are the one who introduced the parable into a discussion of the outworking of salvation, which would include the soil preparation.
If it is not of him that plants and waters, the increase of the 4th soil is due to God. If only God gives such increase, the lack of it represents soil God has not tended.

 

[Cameron143]

I know where you're going with this so I'm breaking it apart to see how you get there. There is nothing said in those Rom10 verses re: any inability of men to understand the Good News spoken and sent by God.



Insert theory of circumcision of heart preceding understanding and faith.

Acts2:37 does not say men were circumcised of the heart. It says idiomatically that they were stabbed/pierced in the heart which is figurative for feeling the pain of anxiety and remorse - being deeply moved (BDAG) - by what they had heard about their crucifying their Messiah.

If it were circumcision of heart, even then it would be following just after being told Jesus is their Messiah.



I'm reading the Text and not doing an exercise in probability to support a theory.

What I believe from the Text is that God originates - or as you say, is the first mover - which I've repeatedly made clear, and men choose to accept or reject Him. The first move is to make His power and divinity known to all men (Rom1) and then to proclaim the Good News of His Son to men. Men can choose to accept or reject either or both of these God-originated and imparted pieces of information and thereby choose to accept or reject God.

Even not accepting the pricking being circumcision doesn't affect that the work being accomplished in Acts 2:37 is the work of God. God employs the gospel to produce hearing and pricking. Thus, God acts upon the mind and the heart of an individual to affect their wills.

 

[Cameron143]

Choosing sovereignly and not based on anything in man means something different from "being no respecter of persons and
no one will be denied the opportunity to repent and be saved/elect" only in your fallible opinion.

You should read some of the verses others are sharing. Acts 10:34-35 exemplify what I just posited. God is not partial...no respecter...because men of all nations are included.

 

[Cameron143]

I know where you're going with this so I'm breaking it apart to see how you get there. There is nothing said in those Rom10 verses re: any inability of men to understand the Good News spoken and sent by God.



Insert theory of circumcision of heart preceding understanding and faith.

Acts2:37 does not say men were circumcised of the heart. It says idiomatically that they were stabbed/pierced in the heart which is figurative for feeling the pain of anxiety and remorse - being deeply moved (BDAG) - by what they had heard about their crucifying their Messiah.

If it were circumcision of heart, even then it would be following just after being told Jesus is their Messiah.



I'm reading the Text and not doing an exercise in probability to support a theory.

What I believe from the Text is that God originates - or as you say, is the first mover - which I've repeatedly made clear, and men choose to accept or reject Him. The first move is to make His power and divinity known to all men (Rom1) and then to proclaim the Good News of His Son to men. Men can choose to accept or reject either or both of these God-originated and imparted pieces of information and thereby choose to accept or reject God.

You are ignoring that faith requires both the word of God and a hearing that is not simply audible. You also ignore that the natural man is hostile in his mind towards God. It's not that man can't understand the gospel, but that he is hostile towards God and specifically in his mind, which is the aspect of man that would need to be employed to understand the gospel.
To ignore the reality of the fallen natural man in consideration of salvation leads merely to an outward consideration of the gospel void of the inward changes necessary for true salvation. This is likely why there are many professing Christians and not so many possessing Christians.

 

[Magenta]

Daniel 4:35.

Daniel 4 verse 35~ All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ Isaiah 14 verse 24~ The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Psalm 139 verse 16~ Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 16 verse 9~ In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 19 verse 21~ Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.

 

[Magenta]

While I agree that the parable isn't talking about the way the soil becomes as it does, you are the one who introduced the parable into a discussion of the outworking of salvation, which would include the soil preparation.
If it is not of him that plants and waters, the increase of the 4th soil is due to God. If only God gives such increase, the lack of it represents soil God has not tended.

1 Corinthians 3 verses 6-7 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.

 

[Magenta]

Both. Hearing biblically does not merely mean to hear audibly, but to hear with understanding.
If it simply meant audible hearing of the gospel, everyone who heard would get saved.

This has been said so many times it is amazing that so few agree and so many actually contradict and deny what is said.

 

[Kroogz]

You should read some of the verses others are sharing. Acts 10:34-35 exemplify what I just posited. God is not partial...no respecter...because men of all nations are included.

Interesting. God is partial to nations. He rejects nations and blesses nations.......But all men in any of those nations can be saved.

He is not partial to men. But nations......PARTIAL.......Huh?

 

[studier]

You are ignoring that faith requires both the word of God and a hearing that is not simply audible.

What does this mean?

You also ignore that the natural man is hostile in his mind towards God

Scripture?

It's not that man can't understand the gospel, but that he is hostile towards God and specifically in his mind, which is the aspect of man that would need to be employed to understand the gospel.

So, man can understand the Gospel, but can't understand the Gospel?

So, the Jewish Remnant and Gentile God-fearers like Cornelius are hostile towards God and can't understand the Gospel? Do you think you can back this up with Scripture?

To ignore the reality of the fallen natural man in consideration of salvation leads merely to an outward consideration of the gospel void of the inward changes necessary for true salvation.

Again, Scripture that says the fallen natural man can only have an outward consideration of the Gospel (assuming this is what you're saying)?

And this is all saying the fallen natural man needs inward changes before he can have an inward consideration of the Gospel (again assuming this is what you're saying).

 

[Magenta]

You also ignore that the natural man is hostile in his mind towards God.

Scripture?

Do you really not know what a child of wrath is?

Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

 

[Cameron143]

Interesting. God is partial to nations. He rejects nations and blesses nations.......But all men in any of those nations can be saved.

He is not partial to men. But nations......PARTIAL.......Huh?

The old covenant deals with the nation Israel. The covenant of grace has always dealt with individuals in the main with notable exceptions. But even when large numbers were saved, God was still dealing with each individually. And while God dealt with Israel nationally, salvation always remained by grace through faith.

 

[studier]

Even not accepting the pricking being circumcision doesn't affect that the work being accomplished in Acts 2:37 is the work of God.

Good ole KJV, "pricked".

Yes, I agree that a man speaking biblical truth as Peter is in Acts2 is at the core the work of God. I think you and I have agreed that God is what you called the "first mover". So, Peter is presenting truth about Jesus Christ to men who have not yet believed. God has also produced the sign of the Spirit and "Galileans" speaking in many different languages according to OC prophecy which Peter uses to substantiate what is taking place. So, with OC Scripture and a miracle in play and the Gospel being spoken, God is working with and through men to evangelize other men.

Where is there any reference to men not being able to understand in order to be saved? Do you need the pricking of hearts to equal circumcision? Or do you need to insert some concept of supernatural hearing to be what Acts2:37 is telling us?

Why not just read the Text of Acts 2 and realize that after 30+ verses of information about what these men are encountering - that God is doing outside of them in their presence- when Peter hits them with the fact that they had killed their Messiah, they were convinced of the truth, and it devastated them?

God employs the gospel to produce hearing and pricking.

I can't agree to your statement because you've introduced some underlying concepts re: hearing, so we probably disagree re: what the word means.

And this KJV pricking you're repeating here, As I understand you still think it's circumcision of the heart, so we disagree here also. Additionally, this word you seem to be making normative is only used once in the NC and only here in relation to a specific group of men who had crucified their Messiah. So, it's not normative to carry throughout the NC at will.

God employs the Gospel to be spoken by men so men can hear it audibly with their ears, learn it, understand it, choose to believe it, obey it. Faith from news & news from God's spoken word. The Spirit is also at work per John17.

Thus, God acts upon the mind and the heart of an individual to affect their wills.

Covered above.

 

[GWH]

You should read some of the verses others are sharing. Acts 10:34-35 exemplify what I just posited. God is not partial...no respecter...because men of all nations are included.

Both-and, Cam, both-and.

 

[Cameron143]

What does this mean?



Scripture?



So, man can understand the Gospel, but can't understand the Gospel?

So, the Jewish Remnant and Gentile God-fearers like Cornelius are hostile towards God and can't understand the Gospel? Do you think you can back this up with Scripture?



Again, Scripture that says the fallen natural man can only have an outward consideration of the Gospel (assuming this is what you're saying)?

And this is all saying the fallen natural man needs inward changes before he can have an inward consideration of the Gospel (again assuming this is what you're saying).

It's hard to tell if you are genuine or facetious, but on the off chance that you cannot understand what I am relaying, here goes:
Romans 8:7 speaks of the enmity of the carnal mind towards God.
I can teach the gospel to a 6 year old in a manner they will understand. The ability to comprehend the gospel isn't the problem. It is man's inability to understand that hinders faith. It is his built in animosity towards God and the things of God. Romans 8 goes on to explain that such a one is not subject to the law, norcantheybe...so they can't be obedient. Further, they cannot please God. So how does someone hostile to God, not subject to the law, and unable to please God...cannot operate in faith, suddenly do what the Apostle says they cannot do? Do they spontaneously make themselves able to do so? Because your explanation of faith, and all that attends it, requires that a carnal man be able to do so. Conversely, my explanation has God working in the carnal man to enable faith to be birthed in him.
If you want to explore the particular case of Cornelius, we can. But Cornelius isn't going to change the truth of what is taught in Romans 8. Nothing in Acts 10 will disagree with Romans 8.
And yes, given what Romans 8 teaches, God must act within an individual before that individual comes to faith.

 

[Cameron143]

Good ole KJV, "pricked".

Yes, I agree that a man speaking biblical truth as Peter is in Acts2 is at the core the work of God. I think you and I have agreed that God is what you called the "first mover". So, Peter is presenting truth about Jesus Christ to men who have not yet believed. God has also produced the sign of the Spirit and "Galileans" speaking in many different languages according to OC prophecy which Peter uses to substantiate what is taking place. So, with OC Scripture and a miracle in play and the Gospel being spoken, God is working with and through men to evangelize other men.

Where is there any reference to men not being able to understand in order to be saved? Do you need the pricking of hearts to equal circumcision? Or do you need to insert some concept of supernatural hearing to be what Acts2:37 is telling us?

Why not just read the Text of Acts 2 and realize that after 30+ verses of information about what these men are encountering - that God is doing outside of them in their presence- when Peter hits them with the fact that they had killed their Messiah, they were convinced of the truth, and it devastated them?



I can't agree to your statement because you've introduced some underlying concepts re: hearing, so we probably disagree re: what the word means.

And this KJV pricking you're repeating here, As I understand you still think it's circumcision of the heart, so we disagree here also. Additionally, this word you seem to be making normative is only used once in the NC and only here in relation to a specific group of men who had crucified their Messiah. So, it's not normative to carry throughout the NC at will.

God employs the Gospel to be spoken by men so men can hear it audibly with their ears, learn it, understand it, choose to believe it, obey it. Faith from news & news from God's spoken word. The Spirit is also at work per John17.



Covered above.

They all heard the same message. Why didn't they all come to faith?

 

[Cameron143]

Both-and, Cam, both-and.

I'm glad you agree God acts sovereignly.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Interesting. God is partial to nations. He rejects nations and blesses nations.......But all men in any of those nations can be saved.

He is not partial to men. But nations......PARTIAL.......Huh?

The teachings must be consistent in the whole of the salvation message.

If the natural man cannot understand the things of God unless his holy Spirit intervenes,then all men are not to whom Peter refers there.
What is the meaning of Acts 10:34-35?


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:34-35 KJV)
William Burkitt’s Commentary
As if the apostle had said, “I now very plainly perceive, that the partition wall is broken down, and that national prerogatives, or personal excellencies, find no acceptance with God: But that any man, be he of what nation or family soever, if he feareth God, and worketh righteousness, shall find acceptance with him.”
Observe here, 1. That no external qualifications, personal privileges and prerogatives, will procure favour and acceptance with God, who neither receives nor rejects men barely for outward respects; I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.
Observe, 2. The true character of a religious man: he is one that feareth God and worketh righteousness; that is, a strict observer of the duties of both tables, of piety towards God, and of justice and charity toward man; and the phrase of working righteousness, implies diligence, and delight, and perseverance in the ways and works of righteousness.
Observe, 3. The privilege of such a religious and truly righteous man: He is accepted with God.
Thence learn, That both the person fearing God, and his works of righteousness are accepted with him, of any nation under heaven, of any calling, sex or condition whatsoever; In every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness is accepted with him.
https://salvationcall.com/acts-10-34-35/

Those persons are not of the natural mind for whom the things of God,like respect for God,righteous actions,charity, re thought foolish.

 

[Kroogz]

The old covenant deals with the nation Israel. The covenant of grace has always dealt with individuals in the main with notable exceptions. But even when large numbers were saved, God was still dealing with each individually. And while God dealt with Israel nationally, salvation always remained by grace through faith.

You are our resident calvie word salad genius.

@studier is our resident Armin word salad genius.

Lucky, we have Bible doctrine to sort the "smart guys" stuff.

Salvation is ALWAYS for ALL. At all times and in ALL places.........And @studier , we will never, no, not ever perish.

 

[Kroogz]

The teachings must be consistent in the whole of the salvation message.

If the natural man cannot understand the things of God unless his holy Spirit intervenes,then all men are not to whom Peter refers there.
What is the meaning of Acts 10:34-35?


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:34-35 KJV)
William Burkitt’s Commentary
As if the apostle had said, “I now very plainly perceive, that the partition wall is broken down, and that national prerogatives, or personal excellencies, find no acceptance with God: But that any man, be he of what nation or family soever, if he feareth God, and worketh righteousness, shall find acceptance with him.”
Observe here, 1. That no external qualifications, personal privileges and prerogatives, will procure favour and acceptance with God, who neither receives nor rejects men barely for outward respects; I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.
Observe, 2. The true character of a religious man: he is one that feareth God and worketh righteousness; that is, a strict observer of the duties of both tables, of piety towards God, and of justice and charity toward man; and the phrase of working righteousness, implies diligence, and delight, and perseverance in the ways and works of righteousness.
Observe, 3. The privilege of such a religious and truly righteous man: He is accepted with God.
Thence learn, That both the person fearing God, and his works of righteousness are accepted with him, of any nation under heaven, of any calling, sex or condition whatsoever; In every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness is accepted with him.
https://salvationcall.com/acts-10-34-35/

Those persons are not of the natural mind for whom the things of God,like respect for God,righteous actions,charity, re thought foolish.

The natural man can understand that they are a sinner in need of salvation. And the Lord Jesus Christ SHOWED all that salvation is through Him alone.

Bunches(Many) of natural men on this forum can't see this simple truth.