Understanding God’s election

[studier]

Fair enough. Just show me the verse that says God is offering salvation through creation or conscience.

I've just explained a flow of and between many verses. It isn't a matter of a single proof-text.

If you truly want to consider some of what I think @GWH was presenting, a few simple thoughts would be these:

• NET John 5:24 "I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
• ESV Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
• ESV Rom1:15-21 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened......Rom5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
  • Salvation in Romans is mainly salvation from God's wrath against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness suppress the truth, part of which truth is that God exists and is manifesting His wrath that all men need to be saved from (Rom1:18-21).
  • Belief in God - believing God who sent Jesus to save men from God's wrath - believing God exists and rewards men who seek Him is part of men's salvation.
  • Our first-born brother and Lord Jesus YHWH's Christ / King [of kings] was always pointing men to His and our Father. We seem to have lost this fact.

Other than this, I'll let @GWH harmonize for himself.

 

[Cameron143]

You would do well/better by seeking to understand what is meant by what is said.
IOW, some meaning is logically/semantically implied by what is explicit.

So...no scripture?

 

[Magenta]

So...no scripture?

Lots saying none are good and the heart of man is wicked and beyond cure... with the heart one believes...
the Pelagians love to think their wicked heart heart chose to love God while they were inherently hostile
in their minds towards Him, captive to the will of the devil. These things are explicitly stated repeatedly
in quite a number of ways throughout the old testament into the new, but they ignore them, deny them,
contradict them, continually. They have the stony ground of their heart which needs replacing bringing
forth good fruit. That bad tree that Jesus explicitly said cannot bring forth good fruit? Yeah.
They deny the very words of Jesus. Again and again and again and again!

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

many can’t accept this part

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

see what your saying fits perfectly with what’s being said but what they are saying would make all that totally irrelevant because no one’s actually judged by thier deeds were eaither pre saved already or damned already

ultimately peiple try hard to remove thier own choice and actions from the equation but sadly they can’t in the end

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you see what I mean if it’s all pre chosen and ordained and appointed then none of that is true that God has clearly said is true

its always about removing our own actions so we don’t need to repent or obey God . We can’t change it it’s all ordained ect

to me it’s high minded to think “ God chose me and made me believe but that other guy god didn’t love him and didn’t give him a chance he just bound him to death by his Will but me he saw enough value to save “

seems like a spoiled entitled child who thinks he has value others don’t but we know God doesn’t have chosen favorites everyones the same to him he doesn’t show respect of persons …which just that sinple repeated statement in scripture shuts down the idea of a chosen group for salvation

I'm pretty sad about it.... and alarmed. God has done so much for us only to get blamed for not saving everyone. Thank you so much for understanding!


🚃

 

[Magenta]

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 28 verse 26~ “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.” Ecclesiastes 7:20~ “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Matthew 7 verse 18~ “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” Philippians 2 verse 13~ “For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”

 

[Cameron143]

I've just explained a flow of and between many verses. It isn't a matter of a single proof-text.

If you truly want to consider some of what I think @GWH was presenting, a few simple thoughts would be these:

• NET John 5:24 "I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
• ESV Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
• ESV Rom1:15-21 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened......Rom5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
  • Salvation in Romans is mainly salvation from God's wrath against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness suppress the truth, part of which truth is that God exists and is manifesting His wrath that all men need to be saved from (Rom1:18-21).
  • Belief in God - believing God who sent Jesus to save men from God's wrath - believing God exists and rewards men who seek Him is part of men's salvation.
  • Our first-born brother and Lord Jesus YHWH's Christ / King [of kings] was always pointing men to His and our Father. We seem to have lost this fact.

Other than this, I'll let @GWH harmonize for himself.

I have no objection to drawing inferences and truth from a collection of verses. We all do this in the absence of ditect passages on a subject. This is not so on this particular subject. Salvation is clearly taught to be through faith. While Romans 1 speaks to man's capacity to know of the existence of God, it does not, in any way, address salvation through creation or conscience. There is no need to extrapolate faith in when we already possess the answer elsewhere.
If you want to extrapolate, let's consider the object of faith. The object of faith in salvation is Christ. This is why the gospel is preached in evangelical endeavors. But simply knowing that God exists does nothing to foster Jesus as the object of faith. It was well said by @Magenta earlier that while the heavens declare the glory of God, they do not declare the glory of the cross or Christ.
So I have no problem with reasoning through the scriptures, where scripture is clear, I find no reason to. And unless a consideration is given to a wide enough cross section of scripture, one can find things in scripture that aren't actually there. This is what I see happening here.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

[Kroogz]

To me it's high minded to be "I choose God, I chose to come to Him and invite Him into my heart, that God is powerless to save me unless "I" choose to let Him".

I am an alcoholic. The world has many options for me to "save" me from my addiction.......I admitted I was an alcoholic and in need of salvation of my addiction. I reached out to the available "help" and they helped me.

For the calvie.... I can make that choice and seek help in this world. But God forbid if I recognize that I am sinner in need of salvation.

You can make everyday decisions to "save" you from everyday death......But in NO WAY can you make a decision for The Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Magenta]

It was well said by @Magenta earlier that while the heavens declare the glory of God, they do not declare the glory of the cross or Christ.

The heavens declare the glory of God, not salvation through the cross
of Christ. I wonder how people don't get that... and/or confuse the two.

Romans 10 verses 13-15 ~ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[Cameron143]

I'm pretty sad about it.... and alarmed. God has done so much for us only to get blamed for not saving everyone. Thank you so much for understanding!


🚃

This is a false understanding and claim. No one has placed any blame on God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To me it's high minded to be "I choose God, I chose to come to Him and invite Him into my heart, that God is powerless to save me unless "I" choose to let Him". This also leads to "I choose to come to Him, so I can chose to walk away from Him too". When you think about it deeply you'll see that this way of thinking puts ALL of salvation on us, where we have a reason to boast, and completely strips ALL power from God, giving Him glory for making the way only, after that, according to what you're saying here, all the rest of the credit/glory for our salvation belongs to us who choose the right way. At least for as long as we feel like walking with Him, He doesn't have the power to keep us so we can walk away from His powerless tail anytime we feel like it. Right?

BTW Can we choose to come back again if we walk away? Can we choose to go in and out at will? After all, the power is in our choice right? Not in God at all, right?

Yeah I mean

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

aid say it’s just acknolwedging reality that God calls all men to choose between good and evil since this day

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If it’s high minded to listen to what god said and acknowledge it then I guess I’m high minded but how does that nullify those scriptures ?

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

But I suppose you say God is a respector of persons and they won’t be judged by thier own actions whether good or bad and instead some are just saved regardless because they were “chosen “ and the others just have no hope because they “ weren’t chosen “ God found no value in that other guy but in me he found a gem “

im not special I’m just another sinner who can be saved by the gospel in the one God did actually choose , Jesus Christ.

But again if the Bible is telling the truth about judgement thisbisnt even a real debate it says it several times over . Each person just like it says here these will be saved

“God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: “

these will receive wrath based on thier deeds not a pre ordained punishment

them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and gentile “

it’s because faith has this principle which totally shuts down the argument

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God rewards those who seek after him he doesn’t randomly choose people and force some to seek him and some to reject him that would mean every soul that ends up in hell is there because zgod chose to put them there and not because of what he said all along that they wouldn’t repent and do good .

The whole concept of everything just already decided and no one has a choice or role or some can’t be saved because he doesn’t allow them is all wrong

and yes if I were to consider myself anong Gods favored and chosen I think that’s high minded indeed because I’m lifting myself up above other people when we are all in the same boat

Because of this

“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he came to do this

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and his Will is that all come to repentance and live and none perish

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭

according to some however God is willing that many perish nfact he causes it by his Will they say . and some are forbidden from repenting and being saved because God wills it …just all the opposite of what’s really there

 

[Cameron143]

You would do well/better by seeking to understand what is meant by what is said.
IOW, some meaning is logically/semantically implied by what is explicit.

I'll take a pass on the advice, but thanks for the discussion.

 

[studier]

I have no objection to drawing inferences and truth from a collection of verses. We all do this in the absence of ditect passages on a subject. This is not so on this particular subject. Salvation is clearly taught to be through faith. While Romans 1 speaks to man's capacity to know of the existence of God, it does not, in any way, address salvation through creation or conscience. There is no need to extrapolate faith in when we already possess the answer elsewhere.
If you want to extrapolate, let's consider the object of faith. The object of faith in salvation is Christ. This is why the gospel is preached in evangelical endeavors. But simply knowing that God exists does nothing to foster Jesus as the object of faith. It was well said by @Magenta earlier that while the heavens declare the glory of God, they do not declare the glory of the cross or Christ.
So I have no problem with reasoning through the scriptures, where scripture is clear, I find no reason to. And unless a consideration is given to a wide enough cross section of scripture, one can find things in scripture that aren't actually there. This is what I see happening here.

The object of faith in John5:24 and Heb11:26 I posted is God who sent Jesus Christ. Jesus says belief in the Father who sent Him is eternal life. I recall a discussion with you re: John17:3 which says eternal life is knowing God the Father and Jesus Christ whom He sent (which again focuses mainly on our Father as I said Jesus most always did).

In Rom1 you and your friend are slighting the fact that what God has made plain about Himself qualifies Paul to say that men know God (Rom1:21) and [know] the truth about God (Rom1:25) and they have God in experiential knowledge (Rom1:28) and they know about God's righteous requirements and their being worthy of death for doing and supporting evil (Rom1:32).

Knowing God and believing in God and believing God is at the heart of man being saved by Jesus Christ whom God sent and whom God proclaimed and through who we come to God. Rom1 and the two verses I provided are all a part of this reality.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm pretty sad about it.... and alarmed. God has done so much for us only to get blamed for not saving everyone. Thank you so much for understanding!


🚃

Imagine a person in hell and on thier mind isn’t “ I wish I hadn’t lived my life like I did and took from everyone and hurt people “ but instead on thier mind is “ God never gave me a chance to live he just created me made me unable to choose and then put me here to suffer not because of what I did but just because that’s how God is and what he wanted to do “

God has no pleasure in anyone’s demise he doesn’t will for anyone to perish that’s why he’s been warning mankind about what’s coming if they don’t change course since Eden even cain the firstborn man was told “ if you do what’s right you will be accepted but if you do what’s evil sin will have you “

In others minds God just rejected cain and cursed him for no reason but God called him to repentance and promised reconciliation he simply chose the other way like many do today

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is something to think this false belief has been weaved into scripture as God's plan of salvation.
How off the mark!

agreed

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you tell a sinner “ your saved already nothing you do will impact it you can’t choose between good or evil it’s all beyond you “ they’ll never repent

 

[HeIsHere]

Imagine a person in hell and on thier mind isn’t “ I wish I hadn’t lived my life like I did and took from everyone and hurt people “ but instead on thier mind is “ God never gave me a chance to live he just created me made me unable to choose and then put me here to suffer not because of what I did but just because that’s how God is and what he wanted to do “

God has no pleasure in anyone’s demise he doesn’t will for anyone to perish that’s why he’s been warning mankind about what’s coming if they don’t change course since Eden even cain the firstborn man was told “ if you do what’s right you will be accepted but if you do what’s evil sin will have you “

In others minds God just rejected cain and cursed him for no reason but God called him to repentance and promised reconciliation he simply chose the other way like many do today

The "system" fails left, right and center.

But string together a bunch of verses out of context together and viola we have a doctrine.

 

[Magenta]

I'll take a pass on the advice, but thanks for the discussion.

They (generally speaking) ignore, deny, and contradict what is explicitly said in favour of their heresy.

 

[HeIsHere]

agreed

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you tell a sinner “ your saved already nothing you do will impact it you can’t choose between good or evil it’s all beyond you “ they’ll never repent

The argument is not about free will, that is a distraction, saving faith/belief in scripture is NOT part of the gift.
No one is regenerated first and then given faith.
Faith is first.

So their entire argument and system is like a house of cards.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The argument is not about free will, that is a distraction, saving faith/belief in scripture is NOT part of the gift.
No one is regenerated first and then given faith.
Faith is first.

So their entire argument and system is like a house of cards.

“saving faith/belief in scripture is NOT part of the gift.
No one is regenerated first and then given faith.
Faith is first.”

right faith first comes from hearing the gospel

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God sent his word out to all creation faith comes from hearing and believing the gospel . That is the very thing that “ regenerates “ the source of salvation is the gospel that promises salvation to those who hear and believe and so …..faith is built up .

But true no one is already “ regenerated magically then they can be saved “ we’re all going to die because we’ve all sinned , we can have those sins remitted and be saved from the punishment and wages of sin .

everyones in the same boat every human need to her and believe the gospel the. They’ll have the opportunity to receive faith from God as they receive his word of faith