Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I know! And it's not like it's something that cannot be done. However, clearly something is lacking
and that something can only be provided by God as many other texts stipulate and articulate.
The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
Romans 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
and that something can only be provided by God as many other texts stipulate and articulate.
The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
Romans 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
-
1
- Show all
I asked Chat GPT
Does the N.T say that we were elect from eternity past? Does Romans 8:29 say those God "foreknew" (Jews) were predestined to be transformed into a likeness of Jesus. Or is Romans 8:29 saying we are eternally elect? The same goes for Ephesians 1:4, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. Does Ephesians 1:4 say anything about being eternally known by God? Or is Ephesians 1:4 saying we are predestined to be holy? There appears to be a mixture of an ideology (i.e., eternal election) with the N.T text in Calvinism. I do believe Calvinism ignores the context in Romans 7,8,9,10,11.
Chat GPT said:
These are thoughtful questions, and the interpretation of passages like Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 1:4 has been a matter of theological debate for centuries. You’re right to point out that context plays a crucial role in understanding these passages, and various theological traditions (including Calvinism) interpret them differently.
Romans 8:29
This verse says:
"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
This verse says:
"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love..."
You’re correct to observe that Calvinism sometimes emphasizes eternal election when interpreting these texts. Critics of Calvinism argue that this theological system can impose its framework onto passages without fully considering their immediate or broader context. For example:
Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 1:4 do speak of God's eternal purposes, but the precise meaning of terms like "foreknew," "predestined," and "chose" depends on the broader biblical and historical context. These passages emphasize God’s plan to transform and sanctify believers in Christ, though theological traditions differ on whether this entails individual, eternal election or something broader.
Does the N.T say that we were elect from eternity past? Does Romans 8:29 say those God "foreknew" (Jews) were predestined to be transformed into a likeness of Jesus. Or is Romans 8:29 saying we are eternally elect? The same goes for Ephesians 1:4, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. Does Ephesians 1:4 say anything about being eternally known by God? Or is Ephesians 1:4 saying we are predestined to be holy? There appears to be a mixture of an ideology (i.e., eternal election) with the N.T text in Calvinism. I do believe Calvinism ignores the context in Romans 7,8,9,10,11.
Chat GPT said:
These are thoughtful questions, and the interpretation of passages like Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 1:4 has been a matter of theological debate for centuries. You’re right to point out that context plays a crucial role in understanding these passages, and various theological traditions (including Calvinism) interpret them differently.
Romans 8:29
This verse says:
"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
- "Foreknew": The Greek word here is proginōskō, which means "to know beforehand." Calvinists often interpret "foreknew" as referring to God's sovereign choice of individuals to salvation—His knowing them in a relational sense from eternity past. However, others argue that "foreknew" could mean God's knowledge of a group (such as Israel or the church) or His knowing beforehand the faith or response of individuals.
- Context of Romans 8: The context suggests this passage is about God's purpose to conform believers to Christ's image. Some argue it is not explicitly about eternal election but rather about God's ultimate purpose for those who are His (whether Jew or Gentile). The focus is not on how they became His but on what God intends to do with them—transform them into Christ's likeness.
- The Jewish Context: Romans 9–11 (which follows) emphasizes Israel’s role in God's plan. Some scholars see Romans 8:29 as foreshadowing Paul's discussion of God's foreknowledge of Israel and the remnant. This view suggests that "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 might refer to God's covenantal relationship with Israel, extended to Gentiles in Christ.
This verse says:
"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love..."
- "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world": Calvinists typically see this as evidence of eternal election—that God selected individuals to be saved before creation. However, others note that the focus is on being chosen "in Christ." This could emphasize the corporate aspect of election (the church as a body) rather than individual predestination. In this view, God’s plan from eternity was for those in Christ to be holy and blameless.
- "That we would be holy and blameless": The purpose of the choosing is holiness and blamelessness. Some argue this suggests the focus is not strictly on eternal election for salvation but rather on God's purpose to sanctify those who are "in Christ."
You’re correct to observe that Calvinism sometimes emphasizes eternal election when interpreting these texts. Critics of Calvinism argue that this theological system can impose its framework onto passages without fully considering their immediate or broader context. For example:
- Romans 9–11: These chapters focus heavily on Israel and God's redemptive history through them. The election discussed here often relates to Israel’s role in salvation history, not necessarily individual predestination.
- Romans 7–8: These chapters address themes like sin, grace, life in the Spirit, and the assurance of believers. Some argue that Calvinist readings risk overemphasizing election at the expense of Paul's broader pastoral aims—encouraging believers in their sanctification and security in Christ.
- Corporate Election: Some theologians (e.g., Arminians) argue that election is primarily corporate. God chose Christ as the elect one, and individuals are "in Christ" by faith, participating in His election.
- Historical Election: Others suggest these passages focus on God's redemptive plan for humanity (including Israel and the church) rather than individual eternal destinies.
Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 1:4 do speak of God's eternal purposes, but the precise meaning of terms like "foreknew," "predestined," and "chose" depends on the broader biblical and historical context. These passages emphasize God’s plan to transform and sanctify believers in Christ, though theological traditions differ on whether this entails individual, eternal election or something broader.
Of course you would be disturbed by the analysis of the text by Chat Gpt.
Especially what Chat GPT had to say below.
Calvinism and Context
You’re correct to observe that Calvinism sometimes emphasizes eternal election when interpreting these texts. Critics of Calvinism argue that this theological system can impose its framework onto passages without fully considering their immediate or broader context. For example:
the simple, literal text, the context, and to whom the text was sent.
Especially what Chat GPT had to say below.
Calvinism and Context
You’re correct to observe that Calvinism sometimes emphasizes eternal election when interpreting these texts. Critics of Calvinism argue that this theological system can impose its framework onto passages without fully considering their immediate or broader context. For example:
- Romans 9–11: These chapters focus heavily on Israel and God's redemptive history through them. The election discussed here often relates to Israel’s role in salvation history, not necessarily individual predestination.
- Romans 7–8: These chapters address themes like sin, grace, life in the Spirit, and the assurance of believers. Some argue that Calvinist readings risk overemphasizing election at the expense of Paul's broader pastoral aims—encouraging believers in their sanctification and security in Christ.
- Corporate Election: Some theologians (e.g., Arminians) argue that election is primarily corporate. God chose Christ as the elect one, and individuals are "in Christ" by faith, participating in His election.
- Historical Election: Others suggest these passages focus on God's redemptive plan for humanity (including Israel and the church) rather than individual eternal destinies.
the simple, literal text, the context, and to whom the text was sent.
Chat GPT:
I think it's fine to use AI for a bit of fun, as long as we aren't using it for serious research...
for the same reasons we don't use wikipedia for serious research.
It's like quoting an article from wikipedia that likely contains all kinds of bias.
It's best to use original sources, and do original research.
If we want to quote someone else's work, that's fine, but it should be a real person, with real credentials, and a real history... so we can all know what we're dealing it.
.
.
I think it's fine to use AI for a bit of fun, as long as we aren't using it for serious research...
for the same reasons we don't use wikipedia for serious research.
It's like quoting an article from wikipedia that likely contains all kinds of bias.
It's best to use original sources, and do original research.
If we want to quote someone else's work, that's fine, but it should be a real person, with real credentials, and a real history... so we can all know what we're dealing it.
.
.
-
4
- Show all
I dunno, Rufus, call me crazy but could it be that we both have been saying essentially the same thing? The confusion may have been caused by a lack of clarity and specificity on my part, in my first post - the one to ThereRoseaLamb - which you initially commented on. Unless there is a subtle point you made that I'm missing, off the top, and based upon you last post to me, I don't find any major areas of disagreement. I'll reread our posts to see if I can uncover any fundamental differences between them. If you're seeing something major that I'm missing, please flag it and let me know - thanks and sorry if I'm being dense.
To the credit of Chat GPT, they didn't say what many Fws here do, i.e. that God foreknew those who would choose to believe in Christ first! But at the same I also find them to be disingenuous since they preach how important context is! If context is so critically important to rightly understand Rom 8:29, why did they omit v. 30 from their argument!?
Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV
W
It's crystal clear from the larger context of v.29 that God's purpose for his elect to be conformed to the likeness of his Son is the immediate goal of salvation in v.29 whereas the more distant goal is the culmination of that salvation when ends with the saints' glorification. Paul knew exactly what he was talking about. He didn't put the cart before the horse. First he states the more immediate objective to salvation then he turns his attention to the more distant goal, making the entire passage soteriological and eschatological in nature. Chat GPT totally ignores the eschaton that is inherent in this passage by trying to confine v.28 to one aspect (sanctification) of soteriology that occurs in this age. But what about all the others!? God calls his people in temporal reality, and he justifies them in this age as well, and ultimately he will glorify them at the end of this age.
Why doesn't some FWer contact that site and ask them why they don't even give v. 30 an honorable mention?
Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV
W
It's crystal clear from the larger context of v.29 that God's purpose for his elect to be conformed to the likeness of his Son is the immediate goal of salvation in v.29 whereas the more distant goal is the culmination of that salvation when ends with the saints' glorification. Paul knew exactly what he was talking about. He didn't put the cart before the horse. First he states the more immediate objective to salvation then he turns his attention to the more distant goal, making the entire passage soteriological and eschatological in nature. Chat GPT totally ignores the eschaton that is inherent in this passage by trying to confine v.28 to one aspect (sanctification) of soteriology that occurs in this age. But what about all the others!? God calls his people in temporal reality, and he justifies them in this age as well, and ultimately he will glorify them at the end of this age.
Why doesn't some FWer contact that site and ask them why they don't even give v. 30 an honorable mention?