Understanding God’s election
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It's not a huge deal, Rog. We both realize and acknowledge that ALL believers are "children of promise" -- in fact, the promise that I think Paul is alluding to is ultimately the Abrhamic Covenant which is currently being fulfilled in this New Covenant economy in terms of salvation. The only "subtle" point I was trying to make is that chapters 9-11 primarily focus on Israel but those chapters are also extremely relevant to the Gentile believers to whom Paul was writing. Don't knock yourself out.
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The reason I use Chat GPT is because Chat GPT is excellent at reading, i.e., the literal reading of the text.
If someone's interpretation of the text rather than the literal reading of the text. Causes debate and
division; then that interpretation may be erroneous.
I have seen far too many interpretations being deployed on Christian Forums.
As far as I am concerned maxwell; Chat GPT has limitations but does an excellent job. In that plain reading
of the text and that's why I use it.
If someone's interpretation of the text rather than the literal reading of the text. Causes debate and
division; then that interpretation may be erroneous.
I have seen far too many interpretations being deployed on Christian Forums.
As far as I am concerned maxwell; Chat GPT has limitations but does an excellent job. In that plain reading
of the text and that's why I use it.
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Either could I and I'll be singing the praises of thanksgiving to God for all eternity, having no regrets that he "forced" his righteous, holy, good and perfect will upon me. After all, that's what "first responders" do when they come across helpless, powerless people. I don't recall the Good Samaritan asking the Jewish crime victim if he wanted to be saved or not from his nearly fatal wounds.
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To the credit of Chat GPT, they didn't say what many Fws here do, i.e. that God foreknew those who would choose to believe in Christ first! But at the same I also find them to be disingenuous since they preach how important context is! If context is so critically important to rightly understand Rom 8:29, why did they omit v. 30 from their argument!?
Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV
W
It's crystal clear from the larger context of v.29 that God's purpose for his elect to be conformed to the likeness of his Son is the immediate goal of salvation in v.29 whereas the more distant goal is the culmination of that salvation when ends with the saints' glorification. Paul knew exactly what he was talking about. He didn't put the cart before the horse. First he states the more immediate objective to salvation then he turns his attention to the more distant goal, making the entire passage soteriological and eschatological in nature. Chat GPT totally ignores the eschaton that is inherent in this passage by trying to confine v.28 to one aspect (sanctification) of soteriology that occurs in this age. But what about all the others!? God calls his people in temporal reality, and he justifies them in this age as well, and ultimately he will glorify them at the end of this age.
Why doesn't some FWer contact that site and ask them why they don't even give v. 30 an honorable mention?
Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV
W
It's crystal clear from the larger context of v.29 that God's purpose for his elect to be conformed to the likeness of his Son is the immediate goal of salvation in v.29 whereas the more distant goal is the culmination of that salvation when ends with the saints' glorification. Paul knew exactly what he was talking about. He didn't put the cart before the horse. First he states the more immediate objective to salvation then he turns his attention to the more distant goal, making the entire passage soteriological and eschatological in nature. Chat GPT totally ignores the eschaton that is inherent in this passage by trying to confine v.28 to one aspect (sanctification) of soteriology that occurs in this age. But what about all the others!? God calls his people in temporal reality, and he justifies them in this age as well, and ultimately he will glorify them at the end of this age.
Why doesn't some FWer contact that site and ask them why they don't even give v. 30 an honorable mention?
Your interpretation is faulty, Rufus.
Romans 8:30
"And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."
When considering this verse in light of corporate election or the election of the Jews, it’s essential to analyze the broader context of Romans, particularly Romans 7 through 11, as you suggested. Here’s a breakdown of how this might be understood:1. Corporate Election
Corporate election views election not primarily as God choosing specific individuals but as God choosing a group or people for a purpose. In the New Testament, this group is often understood as those who are "in Christ." The focus is on the collective identity of the people of God rather than individual destinies.
Key Points for Romans 8:30:
- Predestined: In a corporate framework, this refers to God’s plan for the collective people of God—those who are in Christ—to be conformed to His image (Romans 8:29). The focus is on the destiny of the group (the church) rather than individuals.
- Called: The calling can be understood as the invitation to all people to join the community of faith through the proclamation of the gospel. Those who respond to this call join the elect group.
- Justified: Justification applies to those who enter this group by faith. In Romans, justification is tied to faith in Jesus Christ, which is open to Jews and Gentiles alike (Romans 3:22–24).
- Glorified: This refers to the final destiny of the corporate body of believers, which will be fully realized at Christ’s return.
2. The Election of the Jews (Romans 9-11)
Paul deals explicitly with the election of Israel in Romans 9–11, discussing how God's promises to Israel remain valid even as Gentiles are included in the people of God.
Key Contextual Insights:
- Romans 7:1: Paul begins with a focus on the law and its jurisdiction over those who are bound by it, pointing to the transition from being "under the law" to being "in Christ." This introduces the broader theme of God’s work through Israel (under the law) and now extending to Gentiles.
- Romans 9: Paul emphasizes that not all who are descended from Israel are part of the true Israel. God’s election is based on His purpose and mercy, not on human effort or ethnicity (Romans 9:6-16).
- Romans 10: Paul emphasizes the universal call of the gospel, stating that salvation comes through faith in Christ and is available to both Jews and Gentiles.
- Romans 11: Paul explains that Israel’s stumbling has allowed Gentiles to be included, but God has not rejected His people. There is a future hope for Israel’s restoration (Romans 11:25-29).
- The "predestined" in Romans 8:30 can include the Jewish people as the original elect group through whom God worked in history, and the calling and justification now extend to all who believe, whether Jew or Gentile.
- Paul’s argument shows that God’s election encompasses both Jews and Gentiles in Christ, with the church as the reconstituted people of God.
- Romans 8:30 anticipates the culmination of God’s redemptive plan, where all who belong to Christ—whether Jew or Gentile—will share in the glory of God.
When Romans 8:30 is viewed in this broader context, it can be understood as describing the progression of God’s redemptive plan for His covenant people. Historically, this began with Israel (as the elect nation) and now includes all who are united to Christ by faith.
- Corporate Aspect: The progression (predestined, called, justified, glorified) describes God’s plan for His covenant community, which now consists of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus.
- Jewish Election: The Jewish people are still part of this plan, as Paul reaffirms in Romans 11:28-29, but their election finds its fulfillment in Christ and extends to include Gentiles.
"Chat GPT is excellent at reading.."
AI - Some of the Problems:
A.) AI has to do more than just read, it has CHOOSE which sources to read, then CHOOSE which interpretations of those sources to read, and then CHOOSE the various ways in which to weight,contrast, juxtapose, and include and exclude those interpretations... and it does all that using algorithms coded by people we don't know, but all of whom have some kind of human bias.
B.) It doesn't merely read: it collects, collates and analyzes based on criteria we know nothing about.... thus, much room for error.
C.) The biggest problem: There isn't only plenty of room for error, it is error that we have no ability to catch, because we don't know the means by which the data is collected and analyzed. So there aren't merely errors, there are "unknown" or "untraceable" errors.
D.) In a serious debate, I would caution the debater that relying on AI constitutes an implicit admission you don't know the subject matter yourself... or else you wouldn't have to rely on AI.
CONCLUSION:
1.) You're free to post what you like, and do your study and research however you please... obviously.
2.) But just as wikipedia wouldn't be allowed for serious research, neither would Chat GPT, unless it could be used in a way that all variables were known.
3.) I caution all HUMANS to RETAIN YOUR HUMANITY! DO YOUR RESEARCH! LEARN THE MATERIAL. USE THOSE BRAINS... before the AI overlords conquer us.
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