Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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I'm not so sure about that, Rogerg. "Spiritual Israel" doesn't seem to fit the context of Rom 9-11. Here's why I say this: Paul in 9:6-8 defines who the true Israel is. It isn't the children (descendants) of Abraham according to the flesh; but rather it's the "children of promise". Paul is clearly making a sharp distinction between two groups of Jews. The real Jew in God's eyes are the "children of promise" according to election! And Paul proves this by citing five historical examples of God's election. Issac and Jacob were God's chosen ones, whereas Ishmael and Esau were not. And, of course, Pharaoh was also elected unto reprobation by God, as were Ishmael and Esau.

Having said that, doesn't negate the fact Gentile believers are also spiritual children of Abraham according to what Paul wrote earlier in Romans 4, etc. But Paul's focus in Rom 9-11 is mostly on the Jews. He's explaining to his audience (believing Gentiles) how and why God expanded his redemptive plan to now include God's elect throughout the world. And it's important for the spiritual safety of his original audience that they understand what role national Israel played in the past, in the present and how God's plan will play out to the end of the age, and what role the Gentile believers will play and what their attitude toward Jews should be. This is why he makes such a huge point of explaining how God's word and his plan did not fail and he has not rejected his people either (9:6; 11:1). Even though things currently look dismal and perhaps even hopeless for national Israel (since they rejected their Messiah and are persecuting God's people), God still has his Jewish remnant that he was saving during Paul's day, has been saving all these centuries and will continue to save to the last day -- this remnant being the "children of promise" -- the true Israel. Therefore, all [true] Israel will be saved come the end of the age. It can't be national Israel since the vast majority of Jews since the first century have rejected and still reject their Messiah. So these who have been rejecting Jesus all these centuries cannot comprise all [true] Israel. The true Israel (true Jews) can only be the "children of promise" remnant. And I think Paul reinforces this idea again in 11:1-2. "God did not reject his people whom He foreknew." And we we must remember: God has been saving a Jewish remnant for nearly 2,000 years now. This is why cannot be referring to national Israel. God has not been saving every single Jew born since the first century. He's only been saving those whom he foreknew in eternity past. But nonetheless..."all" (again used in the limited sense) Israel will be saved.

Anyhow, this is how I understand "all Israel will be saved". And I stand to be corrected if you see any holes in what I have just stated.
I think it is safe to say that Paul was talking to the Jews from Romans 2-11.

Here is an example below of Paul addressing the Jews directly.

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brethren for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law has jurisdiction
over a person as long as he lives?

The Roman Gentiles knew nothing about the Mosaic law and they were not circumcised.

We cannot just cite Romans 9-11, and say that Paul was focusing on the Jews in those chapters.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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I'm not so sure about that, Rogerg. "Spiritual Israel" doesn't seem to fit the context of Rom 9-11. Here's why I say this: Paul in 9:6-8 defines who the true Israel is. It isn't the children (descendants) of Abraham according to the flesh; but rather it's the "children of promise". Paul is clearly making a sharp distinction between two groups of Jews. The real Jew in God's eyes are the "children of promise" according to election! And Paul proves this by citing five historical examples of God's election. Issac and Jacob were God's chosen ones, whereas Ishmael and Esau were not. And, of course, Pharaoh was also elected unto reprobation by God, as were Ishmael and Esau.

Having said that, doesn't negate the fact Gentile believers are also spiritual children of Abraham according to what Paul wrote earlier in Romans 4, etc. But Paul's focus in Rom 9-11 is mostly on the Jews. He's explaining to his audience (believing Gentiles) how and why God expanded his redemptive plan to now include God's elect throughout the world. And it's important for the spiritual safety of his original audience that they understand what role national Israel played in the past, in the present and how God's plan will play out to the end of the age, and what role the Gentile believers will play and what their attitude toward Jews should be. This is why he makes such a huge point of explaining how God's word and his plan did not fail and he has not rejected his people either (9:6; 11:1). Even though things currently look dismal and perhaps even hopeless for national Israel (since they rejected their Messiah and are persecuting God's people), God still has his Jewish remnant that he was saving during Paul's day, has been saving all these centuries and will continue to save to the last day -- this remnant being the "children of promise" -- the true Israel. Therefore, all [true] Israel will be saved come the end of the age. It can't be national Israel since the vast majority of Jews since the first century have rejected and still reject their Messiah. So these who have been rejecting Jesus all these centuries cannot comprise all [true] Israel. The true Israel (true Jews) can only be the "children of promise" remnant. And I think Paul reinforces this idea again in 11:1-2. "God did not reject his people whom He foreknew." And we we must remember: God has been saving a Jewish remnant for nearly 2,000 years now. This is why cannot be referring to national Israel. God has not been saving every single Jew born since the first century. He's only been saving those whom he foreknew in eternity past. But nonetheless..."all" (again used in the limited sense) Israel will be saved.

Anyhow, this is how I understand "all Israel will be saved". And I stand to be corrected if you see any holes in what I have just stated.
You are having trouble with what Paul is saying.

Israel was hardened but the Gentiles were not hardened to the Gospel.

But if Israel repents and believes in Jesus then Rufus, all Israel can be saved.

Romans 11:11-12
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation
has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their
failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

The passage below eliminates the idea of an election of an individual from eternity past.

Romans 11:19-22
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off
for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches,
He will not spare you, either
. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you,
God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

If you accept that Israel was severed, hardened, then you must accept that the Gentile nations.
Can likewise be hardened and severed from Christ.

You cannot have one without the other.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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We weren't speaking of the time Jesus was on earth.

Here is that alleged post of yours.... Post #8208.


JMH said:
There's 2 callings, outer calling and inner calling

Outer call is audible like when you are sitting in Church or listening to Gods word on line..
Inner call is the work of the Holy Spirit, not us.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is working once we hear God's word. We beed to response by faith. Thanks
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Here is that alleged post of yours.... Post #8208.


JMH said:
There's 2 callings, outer calling and inner calling

Outer call is audible like when you are sitting in Church or listening to Gods word on line..
Inner call is the work of the Holy Spirit, not us.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is working once we hear God's word. We beed to response by faith. Thanks
We hear...we need...present time.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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I'm not so sure about that, Rogerg. "Spiritual Israel" doesn't seem to fit the context of Rom 9-11. Here's why I say this: Paul in 9:6-8 defines who the true Israel is. It isn't the children (descendants) of Abraham according to the flesh; but rather it's the "children of promise". Paul is clearly making a sharp distinction between two groups of Jews. The real Jew in God's eyes are the "children of promise" according to election! And Paul proves this by citing five historical examples of God's election. Issac and Jacob were God's chosen ones, whereas Ishmael and Esau were not. And, of course, Pharaoh was also elected unto reprobation by God, as were Ishmael and Esau.

Having said that, doesn't negate the fact Gentile believers are also spiritual children of Abraham according to what Paul wrote earlier in Romans 4, etc. But Paul's focus in Rom 9-11 is mostly on the Jews. He's explaining to his audience (believing Gentiles) how and why God expanded his redemptive plan to now include God's elect throughout the world. And it's important for the spiritual safety of his original audience that they understand what role national Israel played in the past, in the present and how God's plan will play out to the end of the age, and what role the Gentile believers will play and what their attitude toward Jews should be. This is why he makes such a huge point of explaining how God's word and his plan did not fail and he has not rejected his people either (9:6; 11:1). Even though things currently look dismal and perhaps even hopeless for national Israel (since they rejected their Messiah and are persecuting God's people), God still has his Jewish remnant that he was saving during Paul's day, has been saving all these centuries and will continue to save to the last day -- this remnant being the "children of promise" -- the true Israel. Therefore, all [true] Israel will be saved come the end of the age. It can't be national Israel since the vast majority of Jews since the first century have rejected and still reject their Messiah. So these who have been rejecting Jesus all these centuries cannot comprise all [true] Israel. The true Israel (true Jews) can only be the "children of promise" remnant. And I think Paul reinforces this idea again in 11:1-2. "God did not reject his people whom He foreknew." And we we must remember: God has been saving a Jewish remnant for nearly 2,000 years now. This is why cannot be referring to national Israel. God has not been saving every single Jew born since the first century. He's only been saving those whom he foreknew in eternity past. But nonetheless..."all" (again used in the limited sense) Israel will be saved.

Anyhow, this is how I understand "all Israel will be saved". And I stand to be corrected if you see any holes in what I have just stated.
No problem, Rufus, I very much respect your point of view very much, so I definitely accept that you could be correct. Given as I tend to be a lazy cuss and generally a simple minded who doesn't like to think much, I'll try to provide a quick answer right now, and if you don't feel that sufficient, I'll try to address your post tomorrow (or so), in greater detail regarding the points you raise above.

First and foremost is your point of "children of promise" "according to election". If I've understood you correctly, it seems to me that both parts cannot equally be true at the same time, that is, logically, one must take full precedence and eliminate the possibility of the other: either someone is chosen solely and exclusively because they had been elected (in which case, being a Jew is irrelevant), or they had been elected because they're Jews (in which case being elect is irrelevant) - at least according to my understanding of election. However, if you're making the case that both can be true, then that would imply that God must have TWO salvation plans, not one: one with Christ solely as the Savior, having exclusively chosen who would become saved through His prerogative, with no other factors permitted; the other, that human linage has played a part in it, which in itself, would override the Christ's choice. I guess you might say that Christ's choice factored into it that they would become Jews and chose them on that basis, (but in that case, wouldn't it eliminate non-Jews?). However, for that option to be logically consistent, it would seem to have to hold true across all Jews not just some - that all must become saved, if its basis were they are Jews.
The second reason is the following verses, which, I believe, reveals to us who the "His people" now are: the true spiritual Israel and true spiritual Jews. It seems to me that by the verses, that God has pretty much wiped the slate clean regarding His relationship to the earthly nation of Israel and to its Jews, which He warned that He would do should they violate the stipulations of His covenant with them, which they nevertheless did repeatedly.
Hope this makes sense; writing isn't my strong suit.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

To set the stage, God told us this:

[Hos 1:9-11 KJV]
9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great [shall be] the day of Jezreel.

[Rom 9:30-33 KJV]
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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If you accept that Israel was severed, hardened, then you must accept that the Gentile nations.
Can likewise be hardened and severed from Christ.

You cannot have one without the other.
It is not a question of Jew or Gentile; it is elect versus non-elect. God placed the elect under the New Covenant. If you read it, you will find that God did it all on their behalf: nothing whatsoever is now required from those under it - they are the recipients ;God
the guarantor.
 
Oct 12, 2017
3,667
599
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It is not a question of Jew or Gentile; it is elect versus non-elect. God placed the elect under the New Covenant. If you read it, you will find that God did it all on their behalf: nothing whatsoever is now required from those under it - they are the recipients ;God
the guarantor.
It depends upon if its Jew elect, or a Gentile elect...

Elect Jews were the original olive tree planted by God.
Gentiles are now grafted into that Tree and its benefits when they believe.

Why do you always have to make it so clinical and complicated, to make it line up with your claim to fame dogma?

Elect Jews were the original olive tree planted by God.

Gentiles are now grafted into that same Tree when they believe.

Will you allow for us to simply understand that much without having to keep stamping it with your copywrite product seal?
 
Jan 17, 2023
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You are having trouble with what Paul is saying.

Israel was hardened but the Gentiles were not hardened to the Gospel.

But if Israel repents and believes in Jesus then Rufus, all Israel can be saved.

Romans 11:11-12
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation
has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their
failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

The passage below eliminates the idea of an election of an individual from eternity past.

Romans 11:19-22
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off
for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches,
He will not spare you, either
. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you,
God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

If you accept that Israel was severed, hardened, then you must accept that the Gentile nations.
Can likewise be hardened and severed from Christ.

You cannot have one without the other.
Thank you for taking up this conversation. I was growing weary of it. You're on point.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Gentiles are now grafted into that Tree and its benefits when they believe.
The Jews of the olive tree are not the olive tree; they are its branches. The OT Jews, because of their exposure to God and the miracles He performed before their eyes, should have believed, but they didn't. Why? because they weren't elected.
The only branches that will remain on the olive tree are the elect - those chosen from before the foundation of the world - chosen from all nations, kindred, people and tongues (including certain Jews). Those who do not remain on the olive tree do not because they had not been elected - and any who attempt to graft themselves into it - the unelected - are broken off; those who become grafted in, and remain grafted in, do so only because they were elected. All who come to true faith were elected by God unto salvation: they become saved and given faith. Election (whether for Jew or Gentile) is the singular reason that anyone becomes saved.

[Isa 27:11 KJV]
11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, [and] set them on fire: for it [is] a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will shew them no favour.

[Heb 3:17-19, 4:2 KJV]
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.