Understanding God’s election

[brightfame52]

Not only that but the Mosaic Law Covenant was a covenant of WORKS! Moses brought the Law to Israel. But Grace and Truth came by the Greater Moses (Jn 1:17)!

Right, and the Abrahamic Covenant was always from the beginning international in scope Gen 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And Abrahams promised inheritance was worldwide Rom 4:13

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[brightfame52]

@Inquisitor

Your effectively claiming that because Israel was chosen for the purpose of the Messiah.

That Israel would have the smallest number of people saved, a mere remnant.

Technically it[salvation] has nothing to do with race, and every ethnic group only has a remnant saved out from them

God's pleasure was to harden Israel, to alienate His chosen people from salvation.

No the actual chosen remnant wasnt hardened, they were saved, and the rest [non elect] were hardened


5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The elect remnant was hardened, blinded, but instead converted to Christ, so you have it backwards

It would appear that to be the chosen people means almost every Israelite is damned.

nope just the reprobated nation, the vessels of wrath, the chosen, the election obtained salvation

What a wonderful and kind God we have.

He is to His elect, dont forget that. And also all deserved damnation, but He was Gracious to save some. Ask the fallen angels

 

[rogerg]

The text of the letter to the Romans is not a spiritual text.

The text of Romans is a small letter a mere sixteen pages of text sent to Rome from Corinth.

Paul said that Israel was hardened and the Gentiles were grafted in.

That is not a spiritual text as that is what really happened to Israel, severed from Jesus Christ.

Comprehending the text of Romans is not a spiritual exercise.

It is whether you believe what the text is saying is the spiritual component.

Did Jesus die for our sin and rise again (Romans 10:9) can be understood by anyone.

Whether you believe the death and resurrection itself is spiritual.

The whole, complete, and total message of the Bible is spiritual.
In the below verse, Christ unconditionally tells us that the Bible was written about Him as Savior, not written about the earthly, nor temporal. Everything in the Bible, in one way or another, is part of the revelation of Christ; hence, everything in the Bible is fundamentally spiritual, being informational to, and/or documentary of, that, with nothing being outside of it. That is the reason the Holy Spirit tells us that He teaches by comparing spiritual things with spiritual; not earthly things with earthly; but natural man cannot comprehend the spiritual, they consider it to be folly, recognizing and accepting only the carnal dimension as the truth. While the natural man may, in some cases, be able to intellectually understand certain superficial spiritual aspects it will have no depth with them: they cannot truly discern, believe, or take them to heart, always believing and falling back upon the carnal as truth.

[Heb 10:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Please, read the following verses carefully and think about them. They explain in detail what I am talking about (I excluded certain verses that I thought not germane to the discussion.)


[1Co 2:2, 5-7, 10-14 KJV]
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. ...
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: ...
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Rufus]

So God gave Israel the law of works and that was the lethal blow God gave to Israel.

See Ezek 20:11, 13, 21; Lk 10:28; Gal 3:12, etc.

God predestined that Israel would crucify their own messiah and nothing could stop that

.

Can anyone thwart God's plans or purposes (Job 42:2)? And have you never read:

Acts 4:24-28
24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:

"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.'

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
NIV

Notice, please (and all other freewillers as well) what v.28 isn't saying: It's not saying that God gazed into cosmic crystal ball and saw beforehand what the Jews and Gentiles would do to Jesus! God decreed everything that happened to His Son, yet at the same time He is not morally culpable for the actions of those people, since he is not morally obligated to bestow any kind of grace on anyone to restrain any kind of evil. God simply left all the major evil actors involved with Christ's death to their own wicked devices.

 

[cv5]

Not only that but the Mosaic Law Covenant was a covenant of WORKS! Moses brought the Law to Israel. But Grace and Truth came by the Greater Moses (Jn 1:17)!

Wrong again @Rufus

It was a covenant of a commissioning to PREACH THE SALVATION IN CHRIST TO THE WORLD first and foremost.
All of the "types" so noted in the law SPOKE OF CHRIST. Literally everything without exception.
Israel was commissioned and were SUPPOSED to be a kingdom of priests to the gentile world to do exactly this.
And set an example of holiness and righteous conduct while doing so, which is their duty to do.
Obedience to the LAW was commanded so that they would "replay" these "types" written in "code" (such as the Passover Lamb) over and over again.

And when the blew it by NOT holding fast the command to KEEP these TYPES intact, they were punished.

Such as the "type" of the seven year sabbath (this being a type Christ being Himself our Sabbath rest).
Israel FAILED to maintain this ritual "type" and BOOM..........70 years captivity.

Same goes for David and the census taken WITHOUT THE BLOOD RANSOM PAYMENT (SILVER=BLOOD). Judgement came.....because they FAILED to keep the code!

[Exo 38:25 KJV]
And the silver of them that were numbered of the congregation [was] an hundred talents, and a thousand seven hundred and threescore and fifteen shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary:

[Exo 38:26 KJV]
A bekah for every man, [that is], half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that went to be numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty [men].

And poor @Rufus and @brightfame52 and @rogerg DO NOT understand any of this? Nope. They don't "get it". At all.

The TRUTH is that the Jews were SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND the TRUE MEANING of the contents of the law and keep it IN GOOD FAITH,
waiting for Him who was prophesied to come. And most of them blew that too.

[Exo 19:6 KJV]
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

[Hab 2:4 KJV]
Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

==========================================================

Beware the leaven of the ignorance of the Calvinites!

 

[rogerg]

The TRUTH is that the Jews were SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND the TRUE MEANING of the contents of the law and keep it IN GOOD FAITH,

[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

 

[John146]

Calvinists have yet to explain Jonah.

 

[Genez]

Wonder if you are dead from the disease, then what ? The wages of sin is death friend

Adam's sin earned the spiritual death of all mankind.
Adam was the cause for us being born with a fallen nature.

God draws us while we are yet in our spiritual death.
We are not dead as to not be able to reason logically.

The choice is before us.
Come to Jesus and live.
Or, stay where you find yourself, and remain dead.

Why do those who do, reject?

"But those who fail to find me harm themselves; ​

all who hate me love death.” Proverbs 8:36​

​

When grace pulled down the depravity that blinded their souls as God was drawing them?
God was drawing them closer to Himself?

They wanted to stay right where they are!

Dead!

​

"All who hate me love death.” ​

They remain in status quo as God leaves them where they prefer to be!

It is not as simple as some try to make it to be...

............

 

[cv5]

Calvinists have yet to explain Jonah.

And the rest of the Bible. Like.....all of it.

 

[cv5]

[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

What is that supposed to be? A stick save?

Instead of more fig leaves, why don't you man up and admit your devastating ignorance which has been exposed for all to see?

 

[brightfame52]

Adam's sin earned the spiritual death of all mankind.
Adam was the cause for us being born with a fallen nature.

God draws us while we are yet in our spiritual death.
We are not dead as to not be able to reason logically.

The choice is before us.
Come to Jesus and live.
Or, stay where you find yourself, and remain dead.

Why do those who do, reject?

"But those who fail to find me harm themselves; ​

all who hate me love death.” Proverbs 8:36​

​

When grace pulled down the depravity that blinded their souls as God was drawing them?
God was drawing them closer to Himself?

They wanted to stay right where they are!

Dead!

​

"All who hate me love death.” ​

They remain in status quo as God leaves them where they prefer to be!

It is not as simple as some try to make it to be...

............

Wonder if you are dead from the disease, then what ? The wages of sin is death friend. If something is dead, it needs to be resurrected, made alive b4 it has any activity

 

[Genez]

And the rest of the Bible. Like.....all of it.

They explain it just fine...

We just do not understand irrational sovereignty.

 

[rogerg]

What is that supposed to be? A stick save?

Instead of more fig leaves, why don't you man up and admit your devastating ignorance which has been exposed for all to see?

You missed your lithium again, haven't you? It's not good when you do that

 

[cv5]

They explain it just fine...

We just do not understand irrational sovereignty.

It's obvious that they haven't the slightest idea of what they are talking about.
Truly epic ignorance. Just off the charts man.

Calvinite nutter doctrine is enough to drive anyone crazy.
Let's both be thankful we are not stuck in the psychiatric ward of that dungeon along with them.

 

[Genez]

Wonder if you are dead from the disease, then what ? The wages of sin is death friend. If something is dead, it needs to be resurrected, made alive b4 it has any activity

So, I guess, you are still alive because you have yet to sin?

What kind of death did we suffer from before regeneration?

The Law was given because dead men can reason with what God wanted from man to be civilized.

But, the Law could not make one to walk in the Spirit and in Truth.

The temple atonement was designed to demonstrate to the yet dead principles needed to grasp
as to make them ready for the Atonement of the Cross!

In other words? The dead could understand certain things.
They just could not live them until they were born again.

It did not require regeneration for Jews under the Law to correlate the taught meaning of the blood of animals
with the Blood of Jesus on the Cross! Even humanly speaking. It could be understood for those so trained by the Law.

++ =

 

[Genez]

It's obvious that they haven't the slightest idea of what they are talking about.
Truly epic ignorance. Just off the charts man.

Calvinite nutter doctrine is enough to drive anyone crazy.
Let's both be thankful we are not stuck in the psychiatric ward of that dungeon along with them.

If it were not for TULIP, of Theodor Beza and Co.?
They would have made good Catholics.
Simply repeating what they were taught faithfully, but unable to explain it.

........

 

[Rufus]

Wrong again @Rufus

It was a covenant of a commissioning to PREACH THE SALVATION IN CHRIST TO THE WORLD first and foremost.
All of the "types" so noted in the law SPOKE OF CHRIST. Literally everything without exception.

So, folks I suppose we're supposed to believe this is why the Old Covenant is so often called "the works of the law". Also, the partial truth that is written above does not preclude a covenant of works. In fact, law-keeping in FAITH actually promotes and advances evangelistic efforts.

I just had a brain fart, so maybe someone can jog my memory; for I know that David somewhere in the Psalms brings out this last truth I just wrote in the last sentence in the above paragraph. I recall him praying to God to grant him repentance and power to keep his holy law so that he would in fact evangelize others and speak great things of God. David certainly did not see any incongruity between God's law and the nation's charge to be light among the Gentile nations. In fact, the two go hand-in-glove. A godly witness most certainly motivates and enhances gospel witnessing.

 

[Rufus]

So, I guess, you are still alive because you have yet to sin?

What kind of death did we suffer from before regeneration?

The Law was given because dead men can reason with what God wanted from man to be civilized.

But, the Law could not make one to walk in the Spirit and in Truth.

The temple atonement was designed to demonstrate to the yet dead principles needed to grasp
as to make them ready for the Atonement of the Cross!

In other words? The dead could understand certain things.
They just could not live them until they were born again.

It did not require regeneration for Jews under the Law to correlate the taught meaning of the blood of animals
with the Blood of Jesus on the Cross! Even humanly speaking. It could be understood for those so trained by the Law.

++ =

And that's why it's written:

"No one understands" (Rom 3:11b)?

 

[Genez]

[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

That was speaking of rebellious Jews that Ezekiel was confronting.

Its like today when Christians en mass speak in tongues and seek miracles.

 

[Genez]

And that's why it's written:

"No one understands" (Rom 3:11b)?

Its not true that no one understands.

The verse that Romans 3:11 cites was citing commentary found in Psalms on the state of apostate Jews in the day it was written.