Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Amen.
By one man,Adam, Sin entered the world.
If Adam obtained Salvation as we understand it then the metaphor of animals being killed so to cover Adam and Eve would not need occur. It did because after their Sin they realized they were naked and were ashamed.
If Adam and Eve were eternally forgiven their Sin,all their seed,generations after,would not be born dead in Sin.
Nor would Cain and Abel have offered sacrifices for their Sins. As did subsequent generations. Sacrifices that forgave their transgressions temporarily,not permanently.
Which we know because Jesus was the unblemished lamb sacrificed for the Sins of the world. Those who know to call on the name of Christ are Saved. And God remembers their Sins no more.
If Adam and Eve were eternally Saved by God, God then condemned their offspring,future generations,to be Sinners.
When Sin entered the world through Adam,if Adam was eternally Saved from his Sins then Sin would have been abated through God's eternal redemption from the Sin of the one man by which Sin entered the world.
Hebrews 10:1-4 – For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
By one man,Adam, Sin entered the world.
If Adam obtained Salvation as we understand it then the metaphor of animals being killed so to cover Adam and Eve would not need occur. It did because after their Sin they realized they were naked and were ashamed.
If Adam and Eve were eternally forgiven their Sin,all their seed,generations after,would not be born dead in Sin.
Nor would Cain and Abel have offered sacrifices for their Sins. As did subsequent generations. Sacrifices that forgave their transgressions temporarily,not permanently.
Which we know because Jesus was the unblemished lamb sacrificed for the Sins of the world. Those who know to call on the name of Christ are Saved. And God remembers their Sins no more.
If Adam and Eve were eternally Saved by God, God then condemned their offspring,future generations,to be Sinners.
When Sin entered the world through Adam,if Adam was eternally Saved from his Sins then Sin would have been abated through God's eternal redemption from the Sin of the one man by which Sin entered the world.
Hebrews 10:1-4 – For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
-
1
- Show all
But that's not the context of Rom 3. The context of Rom 3 is:
Rom 3:9
9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
NIV
Paul is applying several passages from the Psalms to his present day situation under the New Covenant in which the Church consisted of Jews and Gentiles. And he is within his every right to take literary license to do so, most especially because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what he did.
So...because all unregenerate Jews and Gentiles are under the power and control and bondage of sin, Paul in the following verses teaches us what the effects of all that look like spiritually and practically!
You also conveniently forget that Romans was written primarily to Gentile believers (Rom 1:7, 11)!
You freewillers are a real piece of work. You constantly accuse reformed folks of cherry-picking and interpreting things out of their context! Yet, it's you guys who are the biggest offenders, especially since most of you use the eisegetical method of interpretation to boot! You folks are extremely fond of this method and shamelessly and blatantly will read into any given passage whatever you want to advance your lies. I would not want to be in any of your shoes come judgment day when Christ, doubtlessly, will demand to know why you freewillers perverted and corrupted his holy Word by adding your rubbish to it.
Rom 3:9
9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
NIV
Paul is applying several passages from the Psalms to his present day situation under the New Covenant in which the Church consisted of Jews and Gentiles. And he is within his every right to take literary license to do so, most especially because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what he did.
So...because all unregenerate Jews and Gentiles are under the power and control and bondage of sin, Paul in the following verses teaches us what the effects of all that look like spiritually and practically!
You also conveniently forget that Romans was written primarily to Gentile believers (Rom 1:7, 11)!
You freewillers are a real piece of work. You constantly accuse reformed folks of cherry-picking and interpreting things out of their context! Yet, it's you guys who are the biggest offenders, especially since most of you use the eisegetical method of interpretation to boot! You folks are extremely fond of this method and shamelessly and blatantly will read into any given passage whatever you want to advance your lies. I would not want to be in any of your shoes come judgment day when Christ, doubtlessly, will demand to know why you freewillers perverted and corrupted his holy Word by adding your rubbish to it.
You were not contributing anything.
You've been brainwashed.... "But it makes you feel so spiritual" to believe what you do...
You keep forgetting something.
We are not born physically dead.
Yet, you keep treating it like it were the case.
Physically alive people can reason.
A physically alive person can know he sins....
He can choose to believe that some named Jesus died on a Cross to pay for man's sins.
What he can not believe before regeneration are things like the Deity of Christ.
He can not truly believe the Genesis creation account.
He might like entertaining the thought... but, can not believe it.
You've been brainwashed.... "But it makes you feel so spiritual" to believe what you do...
You keep forgetting something.
We are not born physically dead.
Yet, you keep treating it like it were the case.
Physically alive people can reason.
A physically alive person can know he sins....
He can choose to believe that some named Jesus died on a Cross to pay for man's sins.
What he can not believe before regeneration are things like the Deity of Christ.
He can not truly believe the Genesis creation account.
He might like entertaining the thought... but, can not believe it.
Wow! I just this moment read that and nearly fell off my chair! You and I are in the small minority who understand this truth. Unconditional Election took place in the Garden immediately after the Fall; for Eve was most definitely reconciled to God. God placed enmity between her and the serpent; but did no such thing for Adam whose sin, by the way, is characterized in scripture as transgression! And Adam also hid his transgression, according to Job (Job 31:33-34)!
I'm very curious to know if you discovered this truth for yourself (with the aid of the Holy Spirit, of course) or did you learn this at your church by a pastor or a congregant or by an author of a book?
I'm very curious to know if you discovered this truth for yourself (with the aid of the Holy Spirit, of course) or did you learn this at your church by a pastor or a congregant or by an author of a book?
Paul was showing the gentiles in the church.... who had been considered second class people by the Jews. That they can now come up to the same high standards of Jews who had benefitted in the past by living in God's system for their lives.
For the Jews when living under the Law? They lived superior lives when compared to the pagan gentiles.
What Paul was showing the Gentiles when citing Rom 1:17.. was how at one point in the past, that the Jews had fallen into a degenerated way no better than what the typical Gentile saw in his culture ..
The Jews had fallen into a way of life that resembled just as badly how many gentiles lived before salvation. That Jews in their raw state, were no better than the typical gentile by nature. For, as Paul cited about the Jews having at one point their history, than not even one righteous one was to be found! Showing gentiles who could suffer from an inferiority complex in the presence of Jews, even Jews in the past had sunk to the same level as they, even just as bad as what the typical Gentile had been living in before saved!
Paul was saying: "There are none righteous, none that do good?" See that, gentiles?
The Scriptures itself says that Jews, when left to their own emotions and thinking outside of the Law? That they can be just as low as the Gentiles who had been (up to then) living without God!
Paul was laying a level playing field to keep Jews from taking a superiority attitude to the "goyim" who were now accepted by God into the Kingdom.
Gentiles who were living without God's Law were in many ways gross and degenerate in their practices that even justified the Jews
in their looking down their noses at them.
But, Jews with Christ in their hearts were no longer to be that way towards the gentile! Look you Jews!
You too were at one time just as bad!
Here you are Jews! Stop thinking you are inherently superior!
For with God in your life you are equally bad!
Paul was telling the Gentiles by quoting from the torah...
See how low a Jew could sink? He is not intrinsically better than a typical gentile.
Its God's influence that made them superior!
That made gentiles realize that it was God's influence that made the Jews superior,
and not simply because they were naturally superior.
That if Gentiles submit to God's Word for their lives, they too could achieve a superior way of life for themselves!
For the Jews when living under the Law? They lived superior lives when compared to the pagan gentiles.
What Paul was showing the Gentiles when citing Rom 1:17.. was how at one point in the past, that the Jews had fallen into a degenerated way no better than what the typical Gentile saw in his culture ..
The Jews had fallen into a way of life that resembled just as badly how many gentiles lived before salvation. That Jews in their raw state, were no better than the typical gentile by nature. For, as Paul cited about the Jews having at one point their history, than not even one righteous one was to be found! Showing gentiles who could suffer from an inferiority complex in the presence of Jews, even Jews in the past had sunk to the same level as they, even just as bad as what the typical Gentile had been living in before saved!
Paul was saying: "There are none righteous, none that do good?" See that, gentiles?
The Scriptures itself says that Jews, when left to their own emotions and thinking outside of the Law? That they can be just as low as the Gentiles who had been (up to then) living without God!
Paul was laying a level playing field to keep Jews from taking a superiority attitude to the "goyim" who were now accepted by God into the Kingdom.
Gentiles who were living without God's Law were in many ways gross and degenerate in their practices that even justified the Jews
in their looking down their noses at them.
But, Jews with Christ in their hearts were no longer to be that way towards the gentile! Look you Jews!
You too were at one time just as bad!
Here you are Jews! Stop thinking you are inherently superior!
For with God in your life you are equally bad!
To the choirmaster. Of David.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one. Psalm 14:1-3
Paul was telling the Gentiles by quoting from the torah...
See how low a Jew could sink? He is not intrinsically better than a typical gentile.
Its God's influence that made them superior!
That made gentiles realize that it was God's influence that made the Jews superior,
and not simply because they were naturally superior.
That if Gentiles submit to God's Word for their lives, they too could achieve a superior way of life for themselves!
Which means you really do agree with me that Rom 3 9ff. has important theological lessons and equally as important practical applications to both Jews and Gentiles in this New Covenant economy. After all...BOTH groups do put on their pants and skirts the same way (Rom 3:9). Also, both groups share the same daddy.
-
1
- Show all