Truth or Traditions of men
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google were there two ascensions
https://churchandtheology.org/how-many-ascensions-of-jesus-were-there-and-when-did-it-or-they-occur/
https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/keble/the_two_ascensions_of_christ.htm
https://melbournedean.wordpress.com...-death-heavenly-gifts-to-build-up-his-people/
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/2JesusChrist/QDidJesusAscendTwice.aspx
https://churchandtheology.org/how-many-ascensions-of-jesus-were-there-and-when-did-it-or-they-occur/
https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/keble/the_two_ascensions_of_christ.htm
https://melbournedean.wordpress.com...-death-heavenly-gifts-to-build-up-his-people/
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/2JesusChrist/QDidJesusAscendTwice.aspx
I now see where the barley offering idea is coming from.
I don't see the necessity for Jesus to have to make this trip to heaven.
If He is supposed to be the fulfillment of this Barley offering and first fruits, His resurrection accomplished that and the spiritual reality of it would be accepted already without Him needing to do something in a heavenly temple.
No more than He would have to carry his physical blood up there to pour out on the mercy seat in the heavenly temple.
That happened when He shed it on the cross. Any duplication in a heavenly temple was done simultaneously. The veil was rent because his blood was accepted in the heavenly temple at that time. That is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about.
If he did not need to carry a vial of his blood up there to pour out on the Mercy seat because it was already done when he shed it, then he would not need to make a trip for a lesser offering shadow type fulfilment. The barley offering was not even a sin offering.
It would not warrant an ascension to be accepted more than the blood would. This is just another spin on the same old theory that Jesus needed to go up to heaven to make something accepted. No, everything Jesus did on the cross was accepted without having to make a trip to a heavenly temple to do it again.
His resurrection was accepted as a fulfillment of all that the resurrection meant without having to go up to heaven to do something extra.
This whole theory about tasks needing to be PHYSICALLY done in a HEAVENLY spiritual temple is a mistake in logic. It is not a physical temple!!!
It is also misunderstanding of what the writer of Hebrews was saying about how Jesus fulfilled these things that they were continuing to attempt in Temple worship. Not that Jesus went up to heaven and Physically did temple tasks in a Physical Temple in heaven. It was done at the cross.
When Jesus ascended he did not have to do anything else but sit in his rightful place.
I don't see the necessity for Jesus to have to make this trip to heaven.
If He is supposed to be the fulfillment of this Barley offering and first fruits, His resurrection accomplished that and the spiritual reality of it would be accepted already without Him needing to do something in a heavenly temple.
No more than He would have to carry his physical blood up there to pour out on the mercy seat in the heavenly temple.
That happened when He shed it on the cross. Any duplication in a heavenly temple was done simultaneously. The veil was rent because his blood was accepted in the heavenly temple at that time. That is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about.
If he did not need to carry a vial of his blood up there to pour out on the Mercy seat because it was already done when he shed it, then he would not need to make a trip for a lesser offering shadow type fulfilment. The barley offering was not even a sin offering.
It would not warrant an ascension to be accepted more than the blood would. This is just another spin on the same old theory that Jesus needed to go up to heaven to make something accepted. No, everything Jesus did on the cross was accepted without having to make a trip to a heavenly temple to do it again.
His resurrection was accepted as a fulfillment of all that the resurrection meant without having to go up to heaven to do something extra.
This whole theory about tasks needing to be PHYSICALLY done in a HEAVENLY spiritual temple is a mistake in logic. It is not a physical temple!!!
It is also misunderstanding of what the writer of Hebrews was saying about how Jesus fulfilled these things that they were continuing to attempt in Temple worship. Not that Jesus went up to heaven and Physically did temple tasks in a Physical Temple in heaven. It was done at the cross.
When Jesus ascended he did not have to do anything else but sit in his rightful place.
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be
fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a
sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received
the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a
sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received
the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
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What makes most sense to me is when Jesus was seperated from his body (James 2:26, Eph 4 and book of Hebrews) He went up to heaven to complete the process of placing his blood on the altar up there. Based on Gospel and Acts account there was only one ascension after his resurrection.
Hebrews 9
Good News Translation
Earthly and Heavenly Worship
9 The first covenant had rules for worship and a place made for worship as well. 2 A tent was put up, the outer one, which was called the Holy Place. In it were the lampstand and the table with the bread offered to God. 3 Behind the second curtain was the tent called the Most Holy Place. 4 In it were the gold altar for the burning of incense and the Covenant Box all covered with gold and containing the gold jar with the manna in it, Aaron's stick that had sprouted leaves, and the two stone tablets with the commandments written on them. 5 Above the Box were the winged creatures representing God's presence, with their wings spread over the place where sins were forgiven. But now is not the time to explain everything in detail.
6 This is how those things have been arranged. The priests go into the outer tent every day to perform their duties, 7 but only the high priest goes into the inner tent, and he does so only once a year. He takes with him blood which he offers to God on behalf of himself and for the sins which the people have committed without knowing they were sinning. 8 The Holy Spirit clearly teaches from all these arrangements that the way into the Most Holy Place has not yet been opened as long as the outer tent still stands. 9 This is a symbol which points to the present time. It means that the offerings and animal sacrifices presented to God cannot make the worshiper's heart perfect, 10 since they have to do only with food, drink, and various purification ceremonies. These are all outward rules, which apply only until the time when God will establish the new order.
11 But Christ has already come as the High Priest of the good things that are already here.[a] The tent in which he serves is greater and more perfect; it is not a tent made by human hands, that is, it is not a part of this created world. 12 When Christ went through the tent and entered once and for all into the Most Holy Place, he did not take the blood of goats and bulls to offer as a sacrifice; rather, he took his own blood and obtained eternal salvation for us. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a burnt calf are sprinkled on the people who are ritually unclean, and this purifies them by taking away their ritual impurity. 14 Since this is true, how much more is accomplished by the blood of Christ! Through the eternal Spirit he offered himself as a perfect sacrifice to God. His blood will purify our consciences from useless rituals, so that we may serve the living God.
15 For this reason Christ is the one who arranges a new covenant, so that those who have been called by God may receive the eternal blessings that God has promised. This can be done because there has been a death which sets people free from the wrongs they did while the first covenant was in effect.
16 In the case of a will it is necessary to prove that the person who made it has died, 17 for a will means nothing while the person who made it is alive; it goes into effect only after his death. 18 That is why even the first covenant went into effect only with the use of blood. 19 First, Moses proclaimed to the people all the commandments as set forth in the Law. Then he took the blood of bulls and goats, mixed it with water, and sprinkled it on the book of the Law and all the people, using a sprig of hyssop and some red wool. 20 He said, “This is the blood which seals the covenant that God has commanded you to obey.” 21 In the same way Moses also sprinkled the blood on the Sacred Tent and over all the things used in worship. 22 Indeed, according to the Law almost everything is purified by blood, and sins are forgiven only if blood is poured out.
Christ's Sacrifice Takes Away Sins
23 Those things, which are copies of the heavenly originals, had to be purified in that way. But the heavenly things themselves require much better sacrifices. 24 For Christ did not go into a Holy Place made by human hands, which was a copy of the real one. He went into heaven itself, where he now appears on our behalf in the presence of God. 25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, 26 for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God. 28 In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 9
Good News Translation
Earthly and Heavenly Worship
9 The first covenant had rules for worship and a place made for worship as well. 2 A tent was put up, the outer one, which was called the Holy Place. In it were the lampstand and the table with the bread offered to God. 3 Behind the second curtain was the tent called the Most Holy Place. 4 In it were the gold altar for the burning of incense and the Covenant Box all covered with gold and containing the gold jar with the manna in it, Aaron's stick that had sprouted leaves, and the two stone tablets with the commandments written on them. 5 Above the Box were the winged creatures representing God's presence, with their wings spread over the place where sins were forgiven. But now is not the time to explain everything in detail.
6 This is how those things have been arranged. The priests go into the outer tent every day to perform their duties, 7 but only the high priest goes into the inner tent, and he does so only once a year. He takes with him blood which he offers to God on behalf of himself and for the sins which the people have committed without knowing they were sinning. 8 The Holy Spirit clearly teaches from all these arrangements that the way into the Most Holy Place has not yet been opened as long as the outer tent still stands. 9 This is a symbol which points to the present time. It means that the offerings and animal sacrifices presented to God cannot make the worshiper's heart perfect, 10 since they have to do only with food, drink, and various purification ceremonies. These are all outward rules, which apply only until the time when God will establish the new order.
11 But Christ has already come as the High Priest of the good things that are already here.[a] The tent in which he serves is greater and more perfect; it is not a tent made by human hands, that is, it is not a part of this created world. 12 When Christ went through the tent and entered once and for all into the Most Holy Place, he did not take the blood of goats and bulls to offer as a sacrifice; rather, he took his own blood and obtained eternal salvation for us. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a burnt calf are sprinkled on the people who are ritually unclean, and this purifies them by taking away their ritual impurity. 14 Since this is true, how much more is accomplished by the blood of Christ! Through the eternal Spirit he offered himself as a perfect sacrifice to God. His blood will purify our consciences from useless rituals, so that we may serve the living God.
15 For this reason Christ is the one who arranges a new covenant, so that those who have been called by God may receive the eternal blessings that God has promised. This can be done because there has been a death which sets people free from the wrongs they did while the first covenant was in effect.
16 In the case of a will it is necessary to prove that the person who made it has died, 17 for a will means nothing while the person who made it is alive; it goes into effect only after his death. 18 That is why even the first covenant went into effect only with the use of blood. 19 First, Moses proclaimed to the people all the commandments as set forth in the Law. Then he took the blood of bulls and goats, mixed it with water, and sprinkled it on the book of the Law and all the people, using a sprig of hyssop and some red wool. 20 He said, “This is the blood which seals the covenant that God has commanded you to obey.” 21 In the same way Moses also sprinkled the blood on the Sacred Tent and over all the things used in worship. 22 Indeed, according to the Law almost everything is purified by blood, and sins are forgiven only if blood is poured out.
Christ's Sacrifice Takes Away Sins
23 Those things, which are copies of the heavenly originals, had to be purified in that way. But the heavenly things themselves require much better sacrifices. 24 For Christ did not go into a Holy Place made by human hands, which was a copy of the real one. He went into heaven itself, where he now appears on our behalf in the presence of God. 25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, 26 for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God. 28 In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 6:19
Good News Translation
19 We have this hope as an anchor for our lives. It is safe and sure, and goes through the curtain of the heavenly temple into the inner sanctuary.
I may be off about Eph 4
7 Each one of us has received a special gift in proportion to what Christ has given. 8 As the scripture says,
“When he went up to the very heights,
he took many captives with him;
he gave gifts to people.”
9 Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth.[a] 10 So the one who came down is the same one who went up, above and beyond the heavens, to fill the whole universe with his presence. 11 It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.
Good News Translation
19 We have this hope as an anchor for our lives. It is safe and sure, and goes through the curtain of the heavenly temple into the inner sanctuary.
I may be off about Eph 4
7 Each one of us has received a special gift in proportion to what Christ has given. 8 As the scripture says,
“When he went up to the very heights,
he took many captives with him;
he gave gifts to people.”
9 Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth.[a] 10 So the one who came down is the same one who went up, above and beyond the heavens, to fill the whole universe with his presence. 11 It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.
You do realize that you have 2 bodies from the time of conception the physical body flesh and the spirit body that comes from God. Every person and I do consider that to mean from the time of conception to be alive. Ecclesiastes tells us all souls belong to God, Your soul, your intellect comes from God and when you die it returns to God. It will look just like you, Revelation says we will eat. So yes Jesus did have the human, physical, features just in a spiritual body.
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Yes, I agree, but it seems to me that the blood was shed and the veil was torn when Jesus died.
At that moment it was accepted. Jesus did not need to go and do these things after he died, what the writer of Hebrews is saying is that Jesus did these things by his sacrifice.
The writer of Hebrews is making a point about how what Jesus did on the cross accomplished a spiritual reality that the temple worship could not do.
I don't think that the writer of Hebrews is trying to turn this into a physical act of physical literal blood being carried up into heaven but rather it was applied in heaven in a spiritual reality when it was shed on the cross.
And I think that insisting on some red liquid blood needing to be carried up from Golgotha and poured out physically in a physical temple in a spiritual heaven is where this whole 1st ascension between Mary and Thomas has gone terribly wrong.
This first fruits offering theory is just another of the same wrong logic. That Jesus must take his resurrected body (before it is touched) and go up into a physical temple and do a task before his resurrection is accepted? What nonsense is that?
It is because they are applying physical ideas to a spiritual reality/temple. Its not a physical temple and does not need a vial of Jesus literal blood to be poured out because that was done by virtue of the cross and the writer of Hebrews is describing that reality.
The resurrection and any application to the shadow and type of first fruits offering was accepted upon the act of the resurrection and nothing needed to be done to make it "accepted"
That is the difference between shadows and body. It seems to me that this first fruits offering ascension theory is mixing shadows with reality and can't comprehend their mistake.
And it makes sense because that is one of the problems that I have with the Hebrews Roots movement. They are trying to mix Jewish culture and shadows with New Testament realities and teach "deeper meanings" that are actually polluting the truth and preeminence of Christ. It is very deceptive and reeks of Judaizers of the 1st Century. Coming up with all sorts of outward tokens to "enhance their worship" which is going back to temple worship and brazen altars. Have nothing to do with it.
At that moment it was accepted. Jesus did not need to go and do these things after he died, what the writer of Hebrews is saying is that Jesus did these things by his sacrifice.
The writer of Hebrews is making a point about how what Jesus did on the cross accomplished a spiritual reality that the temple worship could not do.
I don't think that the writer of Hebrews is trying to turn this into a physical act of physical literal blood being carried up into heaven but rather it was applied in heaven in a spiritual reality when it was shed on the cross.
And I think that insisting on some red liquid blood needing to be carried up from Golgotha and poured out physically in a physical temple in a spiritual heaven is where this whole 1st ascension between Mary and Thomas has gone terribly wrong.
This first fruits offering theory is just another of the same wrong logic. That Jesus must take his resurrected body (before it is touched) and go up into a physical temple and do a task before his resurrection is accepted? What nonsense is that?
It is because they are applying physical ideas to a spiritual reality/temple. Its not a physical temple and does not need a vial of Jesus literal blood to be poured out because that was done by virtue of the cross and the writer of Hebrews is describing that reality.
The resurrection and any application to the shadow and type of first fruits offering was accepted upon the act of the resurrection and nothing needed to be done to make it "accepted"
That is the difference between shadows and body. It seems to me that this first fruits offering ascension theory is mixing shadows with reality and can't comprehend their mistake.
And it makes sense because that is one of the problems that I have with the Hebrews Roots movement. They are trying to mix Jewish culture and shadows with New Testament realities and teach "deeper meanings" that are actually polluting the truth and preeminence of Christ. It is very deceptive and reeks of Judaizers of the 1st Century. Coming up with all sorts of outward tokens to "enhance their worship" which is going back to temple worship and brazen altars. Have nothing to do with it.
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