Torah Observant Christians.

[Judges1318]

The Levitical assembly ended with the rest of the Levitical practices in 70 AD. The Church is never commanded to gather on the Sabbath... period.

You said, "Scripture does not tell anyone to "go to church" on the Sabbath."
I showed you the scripture that says to assemble on the Sabbath.
You made the simple assertion that scripture does not tell anyone to meet on the Sabbath. I showed you it does.

What 'church' do you suppose Christ is referring to here that existed before His resurrection?

"...tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church..." - Matthew 18:17

As you can see, 'church' is not confined solely to a New Testament assembly of the people of God. It's the assembly of God's people before and after Christ's resurrection. The assembly of God's people were in fact commanded in scripture to meet on the Sabbath. You said no scripture tells anyone to do that.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Please don’t make assertions that are based on your opinion and not fact. I’m not trying to be mislead anyone, so please don’t be disingenuous with regards to that. What I am saying is that you cannot pick and choose that which you claim follow(BTW, I have read Jeremiah and Lamentations and know to whom he was writing and why he had to write).

Everything you are stating has been debated throughout history. What we are discussing is nothing new. Jesus summed up the moral law into a short phrase
“Love the Lord you God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor as you would yourself.” I think any Believer adheres (Or tries to) that because they have the Holy Spirit.

I think biggest disagreement we have is with the Sabbath. Where in the NT does Jesus or any Apostle say Believers are to keep the Sabbath as the Jews did? I still have yet to see a verified passage stating so. I do know what Jesus and Paul have said about the matter:

20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
John 4:20-23

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:16-18

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. (Romans 14:5-6)

Also, if the Sabbath observance was required, why did the Apostles not address that in their letter to Gentile Believers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia in Acts 15? If you choose Saturday or Sunday as the Sabbath for you, that’s great. Due it unto the Lord. When you state that it must be followed in order to be obedient to God, we’ll your incorrect.

-----------------------------
I am sorry for this long response, but I respond accordingly to what is asked...

I am not giving you an opinion, I am giving you Scriptures of what God make clear when he first spoke. Read Jeremiah 31: 31 slow... Behold, the days come saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (not a replacement, but a new covenant).

Verse 32, not according to the one that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake (he is talking about the commandments on the tablets of stone that he made not with the two houses, but with their fathers).

Verse 33, he is telling them about the new covenant that he is making... I will put my law in their inward parts and write them in their hearts.

Hebrews 8 confirms Jeremiah 31 and if one denies this they are deny God at his word.
Everything that is being stating has been debated throughout history, but why? Because men decided to distort the word of God and you have men who understands what God made clear when he first spoke and trying to bring it to the attention of those who been impressed with distorted teachings.

Yeshua summed up the Ten commandments with two commandment and he commended the teacher of the law when he asked him how interpret you the law. Therefore, if two commandment fulfills the Ten Commandments how can one say that the Ten Commandments are done away with? It is all because they do not want to keep the one day God specifically gave to keep holy and that is the Sabbath. Yeshua never did away with the Sabbath, if he did, why did he continue to hold it and why didn't he say the Sabbath is done away with? Give me Scriptures that proves that God's word is wrong. Not to mention, the Scriptures tell us, if we walk after the Spirit, the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the law.

You are correct on the Sabbath. To answer your question where in the NT does Jesus or any Apostle say believers are to keep the Sabbath as the Jews did? Before one can respond to that question one needs to understand that the Sabbath was being held, right? That Yeshua kept the Sabbath even after he said that he is Lord of the Sabbath, right? After his resurrection believers continued to meet on the Sabbath, right? So, there was not need to say to continue in the Sabbath, they understood that it had to be kept holy and they continue with keeping it holy. That is a falacious question that was brought about to deprive one from keeping the Sabbath holy. That is my me asking you, where did Yeshua say to do away with the Sabbath when we know that he never said that.

Now you will say, he is the Lord of the Sabbath, he can say that because he understand Exodus 20 what it says the Sabbath is of the Lord, and if he is Lord the Sabbath is his, wouldn't you agree?

What does the John 4:20-23 have to do with the Sabbath? We serve God every day, but God specifically said to keep the Sabbath holy.
As for John 5:16-18, they accused him of breaking the Sabbath, but did he? If you answer yes then your Savior broke the law therefore he cannot be the Son of God. Before Pilate he broke no law. What Yeshua was actually pointing out that they were following the tradition of me who took the law of God and distorted it, what we see nowadays.

As for Romans 14:5-6, he that regarded the day regarded it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. According to this verse we probably agree that it is talking about the 7th day of the week which included the Sabbath day, so if you do not regard the seventh day unto the Lord, you are not regarding the Sabbath day unto the Lord, if you are regarding the seventh day unto the Lord you are regarding the Sabbath, but do not realize it. See, I will not judge one because in their ignorance they do not realize that if they are regarding the seventh day unto the Lord they are keeping holy.

God dealt with the Jews and the Jews were to teach the Gentiles, but they rejected Messiah. Now, Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles it was something new to them and because of this it was find with the Holy Spirit for them to obstain from 4 things, not that the God did away with the rest. As they learned God's way eventually they with follow the way God intended it. The Romans have distorted God's word, they wanted nothing to do with the Jews and by them removing the Sabbath they Separated the Jewish believers from Gentile believers. Remember that the Jews were being persecuted in Rome.

Bottom line, the Ten Commandment is a walk to obedient and has nothing to do with Salvation, Salvation is the gift of God.

 

[Blik]

I have never attacked you.

I have challenged, questioned, and corrected your statements, assertions, and beliefs.

Please try to understand the distinction.

It would be so wonderful if I could talk you into keeping your posts to scripture and speaking of it in a way that is not rude and accusing others. Perhaps the cause of your rudeness is that you maybe think you have special powers to be always correct so you can correct other's statements saying they are wrong without any speaking of what you think is correct. You make it a personal judgement. Honestly, your beliefs do not always follow scripture and you are human like the rest of us. That means you can challenge, say what you believe is the correct interpretation, but your position of needing to judge all others is not right. Scripture tells us no one who is human is always correct in everything and you are human.

I congratulate you on this post, it is done without rudeness.

 

[Blik]

You said, "Scripture does not tell anyone to "go to church" on the Sabbath."
I showed you the scripture that says to assemble on the Sabbath.
You made the simple assertion that scripture does not tell anyone to meet on the Sabbath. I showed you it does.

What 'church' do you suppose Christ is referring to here that existed before His resurrection?

"...tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church..." - Matthew 18:17

As you can see, 'church' is not confined solely to a New Testament assembly of the people of God. It's the assembly of God's people before and after Christ's resurrection. The assembly of God's people were in fact commanded in scripture to meet on the Sabbath. You said no scripture tells anyone to do that.

You give the truth so well!

 

[rily51jean]

The discussion I started with regards to “Tithing” was interesting to say the least. This brings me to another topic I would like to hear from people on. Torah observant Christians. Of course there plenty of scripture in the NT contrary to this brief, but I would certainly like to heard others views on the subject. Enjoy!

View attachment 209824

The Torah, is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, our Bible. Jesus Christ nailed all the ordinances, & statutes of the old animal blood ritual, and sacrifices to the cross when he suffered, died, and resurrected from the dead. 1 Cor. 5:7, Paul states ...."For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" then in Vs. 8 "Therefore let us keep the feast."
Jesus kept the feasts of God:
Luke 22:15 "And He said unto them, "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
But, for future observance of Passover, He established the wine & the bread, or Communion, as it is now called, instead of sacrificing & roasting a lamb, and eating bitter herbs with it, as described in Exodus.

Jesus did not nail the Ten Commandments, aka the Royal Law, to the cross.
Matt. 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil.
Vs. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Vs. 19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments and teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Vs. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."
John 14:21 "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him."
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

Jesus is the living Word.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Vs. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Vs. 3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. .....
Vs.14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life."

Jesus is the living Word.

1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is transgression of the law."
Vs. 5 "And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin."

 

[Whispered]

i believe there are a lot of jots and tittles in the law that you don't believe you ought to keep.
you don't make blood offerings and you don't give Levites in the temple their portion. there aren't Levites for you to bring your gift to and there isn't a temple for you to offer blood at.
and when is the last time you stoned a witch to death?

you'll rationalize these things away saying Christ is our sacrifice and God is judge. and that is true, and good. but the fact remains that these things are written in the law in jots and tittles, and if you say you do not need to carry them out, you are saying you don't need to keep the jots and the tittles of the law: that they are shadows passed away and the true substance is revealed in the coming of the Messiah.

The Messiah come said, if you love me keep my commandments. After he reiterated....his commandments. You'll rationalize that in some way, but whatever way you dismiss it matters not one bit. Because Jesus said it. And only those who don't honor his teachings try to tell us what he really meant to say.
Shockingly, there are many here who commit to that very thing.
I wonder why.

 

[Whispered]

This is so true. If we follow Christ and do as He did we will go to church on the Sabbath that scripture tells us of, Saturday or the last day of the week and we will also honor the feasts. Christ never told us to toss out the law of Moses.





















Scripture tells us that after the Holy Spirit was made available to all men we were to follow what the spirit told us and not need to have rituals to remind us. To be fleshly fleshly circumcised was given to remind us that we belong to God and diet that eliminated any garbage eating animal was given to remind us to keep clean in thought word and deed. The Holy Spirit now takes their place. But we are still to worship as God tells us to. Now, that is called being a judaizer.

Some say that God spoke to only Jews, and nothing God told them applies to gentiles. Scriptures tells us that there is a spiritual Israel and all believers belong to that Israel.
Rom. 11:17, Gal. 3:29.

Jesus did away with the sacrificial laws when He died on the cross as the offering for the sins of all people.
And during his ministry He said, if you love me keep my commandments.

It would be odd for Jesus to say that if he meant to say, His laws no longer apply.

 

[rily51jean]

I thought this might prove to be helpful, an explanation of The Threefold Use of the Law (outlined for us by Nathan W. Bingham).

Scripture shows that God intends His law to function in three ways, which Calvin crystalized in classic form for the church’s benefit as the law’s threefold use.​

​

Its first function is to be a mirror reflecting to us both the perfect righteousness of God and our own sinfulness and shortcomings. As Augustine wrote, “the law bids us, as we try to fulfill its requirements, and become wearied in our weakness under it, to know how to ask the help of grace.” The law is meant to give knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20; 4:15; 5:13; 7:7-11), and by showing us our need of pardon and our danger of damnation to lead us in repentance and faith to Christ (Gal. 3:19-24).​

​

A second function, the “civil use,” is to restrain evil. Though the law cannot change the heart, it can to some extent inhibit lawlessness by its threats of judgement, especially when backed by a civil code that administers punishment for proven offenses (Deut. 13:6-11; 19:16-21; Rom. 13:3, 4). Thus it secures civil order, and serves to protect the righteous from the unjust.​

​

Its third function is to guide the regenerate into the good works that God has planned for them (Eph. 2:10). The law tells God’s children what will please their heavenly Father. It could be called their family code. Christ was speaking of this third use of the law when He said that those who become His disciples must be taught to do all that He had commanded (Matt. 28:20), and that obedience to His commands will prove the reality of one’s love for Him (John 14:15). The Christian is free from the law as a system of salvation (Rom. 6:14; 7:4, 6; 1 Cor. 9:20; Gal. 2:15-19, 3:25), but is “under the law of Christ” as a rule of life (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2).​

~Deut
p.s. - for a little bit more on this topic, go here: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/which-laws-apply/

Yes, I agree, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, believing in Him to be the only begotten, living, Son of the Living God the Father, but He wants us to obey the 10 Commandments, our obedience shows where our allegiance lies. I think some people mistake the Torah, for the Talmud.

 

[rily51jean]

The Messiah come said, if you love me keep my commandments. After he reiterated....his commandments. You'll rationalize that in some way, but whatever way you dismiss it matters not one bit. Because Jesus said it. And only those who don't honor his teachings try to tell us what he really meant to say.
Shockingly, there are many here who commit to that very thing.
I wonder why.

Probably because they're deceived by false teachers/preachers.

 

[Whispered]

I think you missed my point. Yes, the Law still stands but in Christ we have died to the Law. (again Rom 7:1-6 and Gal 2:19-21)
You are going to have to come up with a way of how those truths align with our walk.
As far as the Sabbath goes, we are to find our rest in Jesus. He is our Sabbath. (Hebrews chaps 3&4 summarized in 4:14-16.)
Failure to find rest in Jesus' person and work is an afront to His redemptive work for us. In a sense we are saying it is insufficient and we need to add our 2¢.

Really easy , as to your first challenge. I look at what Jesus said. Then I look at what anyone else may say regarding the overall theme of what Jesus said. And if they contradict Jesus in any way, I follow Jesus. Not them. Be they an Apostle writing to the churches he founded and who grew to refer to his teachings as his gospel, or lay people on forums.

 

[posthuman]

The Messiah come said, if you love me keep my commandments. After he reiterated....his commandments. You'll rationalize that in some way, but whatever way you dismiss it matters not one bit. Because Jesus said it. And only those who don't honor his teachings try to tell us what he really meant to say.
Shockingly, there are many here who commit to that very thing.
I wonder why.

nice of you to imply that i dishonor Christ and teach against His word because i pointed out there is no more temple or sacrifices.


if you are truly Torah observant, and you & another witness convict me of false prophecy in this topic, then you must stone me to death. literally. Deuteronomy 13, 17 & 18

or are those jots and tittles you don't consider you ought to obey?

 

[rily51jean]

It is not a requirement to live by the Torah, but it is not forbidden either I don't think. It is not a sin if one wants to follow them. I think there is a lot of value added to many of the commandments, and many are an extension of the 10 commandments. However the person should keep in mind we are not under the law.

If you start searching for Red heifers, and start sacrificing them, or lambs or Rams and sacrificing them, it is sacrilegious. It would be as though you are saying that Christ was not adequate to fulfill His purpose for coming here, which was to die on the cross in place of us, to save us from our sins.

 

[Whispered]

nice of you to imply that i dishonor Christ and teach against His word because i pointed out there is no more temple or sacrifices.


if you are truly Torah observant, and you & another witness convict me of false prophecy in this topic, then you must stone me to death. literally. Deuteronomy 13, 17 & 18

or are those jots and tittles you don't consider you ought to obey?

I think you should realize the depths to which you plunge when arguing for your beliefs of scripture. Even when it is contrary to scripture.

 

[posthuman]

I think you should realize the depths to which you plunge when arguing for your beliefs of scripture. Even when it is contrary to scripture.

all i'm saying is scripture:

whoever breaks even the least part of Torah is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10
there is no more temple in Jerusalem and even if there were, there is no more sacrifice for sins Hebrews 10:26
no one for nigh on two thousand years has ever observed Leviticus 5, therefore no one for an eon has observed Torah.
a person cannot any longer; the veil is torn. Matthew 27:51

 

[Blik]

nice of you to imply that i dishonor Christ and teach against His word because i pointed out there is no more temple or sacrifices.


if you are truly Torah observant, and you & another witness convict me of false prophecy in this topic, then you must stone me to death. literally. Deuteronomy 13, 17 & 18

or are those jots and tittles you don't consider you ought to obey?

There is much symbolism in scripture and the temple and the blood of animals as sacrifice were symbols. Actually, there is currently temples and sacrifices. We are the temple and we are to treat our bodies as to the Lord. Christ is our sacrifice.

I find it hilarious that you look for ways that people still sin when they profess to put their heart and soul into not sinning. Are you free of sin? If you are a human then you are not. Then why in the world would you point to the sin of others.

I don't think you have a clue about the stoning of the OT. They did not have prisons or any other way to support justice as we do today, but the stoning was done only after strict rules so it was not done unjustly. The people chosen to handle the stoning were carefully chosen. God was part of their government and just as we have laws against traitors, they had laws against traitors to the lord.

 

[posthuman]

There is much symbolism in scripture and the temple and the blood of animals as sacrifice were symbols. Actually, there is currently temples and sacrifices. We are the temple and we are to treat our bodies as to the Lord. Christ is our sacrifice.

so, you are admitting that you only 'symbolically' observe Torah -- you don't "actually" observe Torah?

you are saying, 'some of those jots and tittles are only symbolic' ?

 

[Whispered]

so, you are admitting that you only 'symbolically' observe Torah -- you don't "actually" observe Torah?

you are saying, 'some of those jots and tittles are only symbolic' ?

Actually what they actually said is :

There is much symbolism in scripture and the temple and the blood of animals as sacrifice were symbols. Actually, there is currently temples and sacrifices. We are the temple and we are to treat our bodies as to the Lord. Christ is our sacrifice.

I find it hilarious that you look for ways that people still sin when they profess to put their heart and soul into not sinning. Are you free of sin? If you are a human then you are not. Then why in the world would you point to the sin of others.

I don't think you have a clue about the stoning of the OT. They did not have prisons or any other way to support justice as we do today, but the stoning was done only after strict rules so it was not done unjustly. The people chosen to handle the stoning were carefully chosen. God was part of their government and just as we have laws against traitors, they had laws against traitors to the lord.

It's something out of In Living Color reruns. "The sky is blue" "So, you're saying you don't like the color blue?"

 

[posthuman]

I find it hilarious that you look for ways that people still sin when they profess to put their heart and soul into not sinning. Are you free of sin? If you are a human then you are not. Then why in the world would you point to the sin of others.

you clearly do not understand what i am saying if you think i'm 'looking for ways that people still sin'

I don't think you have a clue about the stoning of the OT. They did not have prisons or any other way to support justice as we do today, but the stoning was done only after strict rules so it was not done unjustly. The people chosen to handle the stoning were carefully chosen. God was part of their government and just as we have laws against traitors, they had laws against traitors to the lord.

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.​

Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
(Numbers 15:32-26) ​

​

 

[posthuman]

It's something out of In Living Color reruns. "The sky is blue" "So, you're saying you don't like the color blue?"

you clearly don't comprehend what's being said either.

does the Torah command that you bring a goat, a lamb, or birds to the place of meeting, and give them to the priests for their blood to be shed at the altar whenever you sin, yes or no
is Leviticus 5 made of jots and tittles, yes or no
do you keep it, yes or no
does scripture say that if you do not keep ever single jot and tittle of the law you are guilty of breaking all of it, yes or no
so does in truth actually keep Torah, yes or no

i wonder if you hardly understand what Blik said either.
she made 3 statements.
the first is relevant and i replied to it. she confessed that she doesn't keep the jot and tittle of the Torah, she accepts that Christ has done away with it by establishing Himself as the atonement for sin.
the second was an ignorant personal attack against me.
the third was a diversion away from the fact that she doesn't observe every jot and tittle and she spoke without knowledge.

is it because i did not respond immediately to baseless insults and ignorant diversions, you accuse me of being a liar?
or is it because you are having trouble following the discussion so you though best recourse is to slander me?

but since you objected i wrote another post and answered to Blik about the mockery she had also posted, that the wise should have overlooked without mention. happy?

 

[posthuman]

you clearly do not understand what i am saying if you think i'm 'looking for ways that people still sin'

Torah commands males be circumcised in the flesh.
it is not sinful for us not to become circumcised in the flesh.

Torah commands keeping the new moon feasts.
it is not sinful for us not to observe the new moon feast.

Torah commands sacrifices of the blood of goats, bulls, lambs and birds.
it is not sinful for us not to do this.