Torah Observant Christians.

[Judges1318]

Did you know the majority of congragants in the Messianic Congregations are Gentiles? True Jewish Christians know better than to go back under the Law.

I'd be surprised if that is actually true.
My experience is different than that. Just as yours is different than mine. I'd be curious what is actually the truth about it. I just know that when Jews get saved they fall in love with Jesus and they want to worship him through their people's law. It's like they know instinctively that what the gentile church does according to it's Roman traditions is not what God ordained.

 

[crossnote]

Maybe, but certainly the disciplines of the faith, whatever we think they are, help us to avoid falling into sin and unbelief. For example, I think personal Bible study and fellowship with the body help to sanctify me in regard to my personal growth and steadfastness in the faith. I can't see any reason why what they do can't possibly aid them in the same way that my disciplines aid me in my sanctification. Anything that keeps a person heavenly minded the whole day through can't help but to keep the road blocks to sanctification at a minimum.

That is different. Of course God's Word builds up our faith, keeping dietary laws don't.

Yeah, that's kind of scary. I'd have to talk to them more to be able to say I see that too.

it's not so much what they teach per se, but where they teach from.

They are sinning if they don't follow their conscience. Just as we are sinning if we don't follow our conscience in whatever it is that our conscience is talking to us about.

As born again Christians, we have been given a new conscience and the Holy Spirit. Their teachers should be teaching accordingly.

I wouldn't rule out any spiritual application and insights into the fruit of the Spirit coming from the types and shadows of the law and that period of time. For example, this account from the story of the spies sent out to explore Canaan:

21So they went up and explored the land from the Desert of Zin as far as Rehob, toward Lebo Hamath. 22They went up through the Negev and came to Hebron, where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, lived. (Hebron had been built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.) 23When they reached the Valley of Eshkol, a they cut off a branch bearing a single cluster of grapes. Two of them carried it on a pole between them, along with some pomegranates and figs. 24That place was called the Valley of Eshkol because of the cluster of grapes the Israelites cut off there. 25At the end of forty days they returned from exploring the land.

26They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. 27They gave Moses this account: “We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit. - Numbers 13:21-27

This can be a picture of Jesus going on ahead of us into the heavenly realm after the Crucifixion and sending back the Holy Spirit to the people of God. Or it could be a picture of the prophet or teacher who has spied out the good land ahead of us and who through his ministry shares the fruit of the land he has experienced for the rest of us to see and taste for ourselves.

I'm referring to this...

Colossians 2:16-17 ESV
[16] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [17] These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 8:1-7 ESV
[1] Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, [2] a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. [3] For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. [4] Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. [5] They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." [6] But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Hebrews 10:1 ESV
[1] For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

 

[crossnote]

I'd be surprised if that is actually true.
My experience is different than that. Just as yours is different than mine. I'd be curious what is actually the truth about it. I just know that when Jews get saved they fall in love with Jesus and they want to worship him through their people's law. It's like they know instinctively that what the gentile church does according to it's Roman traditions is not what God ordained.

Forget our actual experiences, look up the staistics. It is quite well known. Jews are too wise to put themselves back under the law.

 

[Blik]

Scripture does not tell anyone to "go to church" on the Sabbath. When in the flesh, Jesus never "went to church"... not any day of the week.

You have a problem with your Jewish/gentile ideas. They don't follow scripture. You also have a problem with language, your language definitions, if translated into understanding God, they would be legalism. Symbolism seems to be lost to you.

 

[crossnote]

I'd be surprised if that is actually true.
My experience is different than that. Just as yours is different than mine. I'd be curious what is actually the truth about it. I just know that when Jews get saved they fall in love with Jesus and they want to worship him through their people's law. It's like they know instinctively that what the gentile church does according to it's Roman traditions is not what God ordained.

"But attracting Jewish people to the faith can be challenging. In America, the majority of Messianic Jewish Congregations are populated not by ethnically Jewish believers. They’re actually filled with Gentiles." https://worldandeverything.org/2019/02/messianic-congregations-with-gentile-believers/

"Born-again seeking: explaining the gentile majority in messianic Judaism " (see chart page 9)... http://www.hillarykaell.com/uploads/1/0/2/5/10254371/2015-kaell-messianics-religion.pdf

 

[Dino246]

You have a problem with your Jewish/gentile ideas. They don't follow scripture. You also have a problem with language, your language definitions, if translated into understanding God, they would be legalism. Symbolism seems to be lost to you.

Again I will encourage you to focus on the issues instead of on making personal comments. I am well aware of both language issues and sybolism, but I reject the conflation of Levitical worship with Christian worship. The Levitical system ended when the curtain tore in two at Jesus' death, and was abolished completely with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

With regard: to the passage from Jeremiah, God was speaking to the Israelites in exile. It was a promise that God had made to bring them back to the promise land.

God had made many convents with His chosen people. The convent of circumcision was an example.

( The Hebrew word for a covenant is ברית (b'riyt, Strong's #1285 ), a noun derived from the verb ברה (B.R.H, Strong's #1262), which means "to select the best.")

God renewing of the His convent:
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14

You take a section of scripture and try to make it say something that it doesn’t. Context is everything. As for the promise to Gentiles:

Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
Acts28:28

I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"
Hosea 2:23

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:28-29

Are you obedient to just the moral law or all of them? 613 in all.

----------------------------------

First, let me make myself clear, never once did I say that Salvation was not for the Gentiles, so don't make it appear as if I said that.

Secondly, read Jeremiah again, God through the mouth of Jeremiah spoke that the new covenant would be with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the one he did with their fathers. What was the covenant God made with their fathers? The covenant made with them was on tablets of stone, the one he said he was going to make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah was to store it in their mind and write them in there hearts. It was not a replacement of a covenant, it was the manner in which how he was going to give the commandments which was storing them in their minds and writing them in their mind.

As for the 613 laws in all, it is not about 613 laws it is about being obedient to the law of God and what God asks of us. Yeshua confirmed that if you keep two commandments to love the Lord God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself you fulfill the Ten Commandment, if this is the case then how can you tell me that the Ten commandments are done away with. Question, are you committing adultery? Are you stealing, are you bearing false witness against your neighbors? Are you bowing down to other gods? No, right? Are you being obedient to the law of God? Yes, right? Are the law done away with? Sure you will have to agree that they are not and if so, why do you remove the Sabbath day, unless you are one of those persons who been impressed with believing that the Sabbath day is done away with.

By the way. Yeshua fulfilled some of the laws like the law of animal sacrifices, so instead of bringing up 613 laws why don't you be truthful when asking the question about the 613 laws because you know that many who are obedient to the law of God acknowledges that animal sacrifices are done away with, unless your intention is to ultimately mislead others by making it appear that those who are obedient to the Ten Commandments also believe in animal sacrifices. Maybe if you truthfully read all my post you would not be asking the question about the 613 laws, but your mind have me conditioned to do so.

 

[Judges1318]

That is different. Of course God's Word builds up our faith, keeping dietary laws don't.

No, what I'm saying is the keeping of dietary laws or other old covenant worship laws can indeed keep us God conscious and focused and in that way aid in our sanctification by keeping us from slipping into godlessness. The acts in and of themselves have no power to promote sanctification in the believer.

As born again Christians, we have been given a new conscience and the Holy Spirit. Their teachers should be teaching accordingly.

We know from Paul's teaching in Romans 14 that just isn't true. He is showing us that genuine believers really can have a conscience not fully trained in knowledge by the Holy Spirit.

I'm referring to this...

Colossians 2:16-17 ESV
[16] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [17] These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 8:1-7 ESV
[1] Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, [2] a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. [3] For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. [4] Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. [5] They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." [6] But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Hebrews 10:1 ESV
[1] For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

I knew exactly what you were talking about. We can learn many aspects of Christ and New Covenant life through the pictures and symbols and types of the old covenant law. I don't think the fruit of the Spirit is any exception.

You can see the truths of Christ and the life of the Spirit in so many literal things in the old covenant. That's why the Festival cycle is so useful as the framework in which the church can commemorate and celebrate the unveiling of the ministry of Christ in this New Covenant. For example, what better way to remember and celebrate the sacrifice of Christ our Passover Lamb than through the recognition of a Mosaic Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread celebration. Just as long as we see, and are conscious of Christ and the focus is on Him and not on the legalities of the Feast itself I can see it being a great way to worship God. There was no need to invent a new way to do that.

 

[Judges1318]

Scripture does not tell anyone to "go to church" on the Sabbath. When in the flesh, Jesus never "went to church"... not any day of the week.

Actually it does....

"the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly." - Leviticus 23:3

 

[Aerials1978]

----------------------------------

First, let me make myself clear, never once did I say that Salvation was not for the Gentiles, so don't make it appear as if I said that.

Secondly, read Jeremiah again, God through the mouth of Jeremiah spoke that the new covenant would be with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the one he did with their fathers. What was the covenant God made with their fathers? The covenant made with them was on tablets of stone, the one he said he was going to make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah was to store it in their mind and write them in there hearts. It was not a replacement of a covenant, it was the manner in which how he was going to give the commandments which was storing them in their minds and writing them in their mind.

As for the 613 laws in all, it is not about 613 laws it is about being obedient to the law of God and what God asks of us. Yeshua confirmed that if you keep two commandments to love the Lord God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself you fulfill the Ten Commandment, if this is the case then how can you tell me that the Ten commandments are done away with. Question, are you committing adultery? Are you stealing, are you bearing false witness against your neighbors? Are you bowing down to other gods? No, right? Are you being obedient to the law of God? Yes, right? Are the law done away with? Sure you will have to agree that they are not and if so, why do you remove the Sabbath day, unless you are one of those persons who been impressed with believing that the Sabbath day is done away with.

By the way. Yeshua fulfilled some of the laws like the law of animal sacrifices, so instead of bringing up 613 laws why don't you be truthful when asking the question about the 613 laws because you know that many who are obedient to the law of God acknowledges that animal sacrifices are done away with, unless your intention is to ultimately mislead others by making it appear that those who are obedient to the Ten Commandments also believe in animal sacrifices. Maybe if you truthfully read all my post you would not be asking the question about the 613 laws, but your mind have me conditioned to do so.

Please don’t make assertions that are based on your opinion and not fact. I’m not trying to be mislead anyone, so please don’t be disingenuous with regards to that. What I am saying is that you cannot pick and choose that which you claim follow(BTW, I have read Jeremiah and Lamentations and know to whom he was writing and why he had to write).

Everything you are stating has been debated throughout history. What we are discussing is nothing new. Jesus summed up the moral law into a short phrase
“Love the Lord you God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor as you would yourself.” I think any Believer adheres (Or tries to) that because they have the Holy Spirit.

I think biggest disagreement we have is with the Sabbath. Where in the NT does Jesus or any Apostle say Believers are to keep the Sabbath as the Jews did? I still have yet to see a verified passage stating so. I do know what Jesus and Paul have said about the matter:

20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
John 4:20-23

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:16-18

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. (Romans 14:5-6)

Also, if the Sabbath observance was required, why did the Apostles not address that in their letter to Gentile Believers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia in Acts 15? If you choose Saturday or Sunday as the Sabbath for you, that’s great. Due it unto the Lord. When you state that it must be followed in order to be obedient to God, we’ll your incorrect.

 

[Judges1318]

"But attracting Jewish people to the faith can be challenging. In America, the majority of Messianic Jewish Congregations are populated not by ethnically Jewish believers. They’re actually filled with Gentiles." https://worldandeverything.org/2019/02/messianic-congregations-with-gentile-believers/

"Born-again seeking: explaining the gentile majority in messianic Judaism " (see chart page 9)... http://www.hillarykaell.com/uploads/1/0/2/5/10254371/2015-kaell-messianics-religion.pdf

I will read those.
Maybe the disconnect between us is saying that out of all believers in Messianic churches most are gentiles, and I'm saying if you're a Jew and you're saved you're going to almost invariably gravitate toward a Messianic church.

 

[crossnote]

No, what I'm saying is the keeping of dietary laws or other old covenant worship laws can indeed keep us God conscious and focused and in that way aid in our sanctification by keeping us from slipping into godlessness. The acts in and of themselves have no power to promote sanctification in the believer.

That sounds like a good reason to set up images of God...to remind us of God "indeed keep us God conscious". Nope, I think God's Word is sufficient to remind us, if we only read it.

We know from Paul's teaching in Romans 14 that just isn't true. He is showing us that genuine believers really can have a conscience not fully trained in knowledge by the Holy Spirit.

Paul there is referring to 'brethren weak in the faith'. 'Brethren weak in the faith' should not be teachers (which was what I was referring to.

You can see the truths of Christ and the life of the Spirit in so many literal things in the old covenant. That's why the Festival cycle is so useful as the framework in which the church can commemorate and celebrate the unveiling of the ministry of Christ in this New Covenant. For example, what better way to remember and celebrate the sacrifice of Christ our Passover Lamb than through the recognition of a Mosaic Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread celebration. Just as long as we see, and are conscious of Christ and the focus is on Him and not on the legalities of the Feast itself I can see it being a great way to worship God. There was no need to invent a new way to do that.

Once the substance has come, there is no point in admiring what the shadow pointed to. Or should we keep kissing our girlfriend's picture after she has returned? The only point I saw Paul and the other Jewish Apostles keeping the Feasts etc. was not to offend as they used those opportunities to reach the lost Jews.

 

[crossnote]

I will read those.
Maybe the disconnect between us is saying that out of all believers in Messianic churches most are gentiles, and I'm saying if you're a Jew and you're saved you're going to almost invariably gravitate toward a Messianic church.

That would be an interesting study.

 

[Blik]

Again I will encourage you to focus on the issues instead of on making personal comments. I am well aware of both language issues and sybolism, but I reject the conflation of Levitical worship with Christian worship. The Levitical system ended when the curtain tore in two at Jesus' death, and was abolished completely with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

Last time you attacked me I asked you to keep your posting to scripture and not rude accusations and you didn't even answer. Now, of all things if you aren't saying you are so lily white and it is me that doesn't discuss scripture.

You have knowledge of scripture, even though you think much of it is speaking to Israel only. We could have interesting discussions if I could please, please get you to stop this rudeness and accusations of me instead of speaking of scripture.



e

 

[Blik]

. Where in the NT does Jesus or any Apostle say Believers are to keep the Sabbath as the Jews did? I still have yet to see a verified passage stating so. I do know what Jesus and Paul have said about the matter:

Actually it does. First, Jesus said that He did not come to change the law, and not the tiniest bit of the law. Christ said to follow me, and Christ kept the Sabbath. If not the tiniest part of the law is changed, then certainly what is in the commandments doesn't change. Jesus taught that He is God, and if Christ is God then what the Father and the Holy Spirit tells us, so does Christ.

 

[Dino246]

Actually it does....

"the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly." - Leviticus 23:3

Yes... but the Levitical tabernacle is not "church". This is a common canard of Judaizers; conflating Levitical practices with Church practices. The early Christians met together on the Lord's day (Sunday), and on other days during the week.

 

[Dino246]

Last time you attacked me I asked you to keep your posting to scripture and not rude accusations and you didn't even answer. Now, of all things if you aren't saying you are so lily white and it is me that doesn't discuss scripture.

You have knowledge of scripture, even though you think much of it is speaking to Israel only. We could have interesting discussions if I could please, please get you to stop this rudeness and accusations of me instead of speaking of scripture.

I have never attacked you.

I have challenged, questioned, and corrected your statements, assertions, and beliefs.

Please try to understand the distinction.

 

[Judges1318]

Yes... but the Levitical tabernacle is not "church". This is a common canard of Judaizers; conflating Levitical practices with Church practices.

What is it about 'sacred assembly' that you do not understand?

Scripture does not tell anyone to "go to church" on the Sabbath. When in the flesh, Jesus never "went to church"... not any day of the week.

Actually it does....

"the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly." - Leviticus 23:3

I see scripture saying to assemble together on the Sabbath.
What exactly is it you're not grasping here?

 

[Judges1318]

That sounds like a good reason to set up images of God...to remind us of God "indeed keep us God conscious".

No. That would not be a good way.
Jesus is the only accurate and authorized image of God.

I think God's Word is sufficient to remind us, if we only read it.

I bet Messianic believers put the rest of us to shame when it comes to faithful Bible reading.
Deuteronomy just happens to be one of my favorite books of the Bible even though I'm not a Messianic believer.

Paul there is referring to 'brethren weak in the faith'. 'Brethren weak in the faith' should not be teachers (which was what I was referring to.

The weakness of faith that Paul is referring to is not a substandard or inadequate faith in Christ. It's a lack of faith to know and understand and accept certain freedoms that came to us with the New Covenant. We're all entitled to walk in, or not walk in any of those freedoms. That doesn't prevent a person from being a teacher.

Once the substance has come, there is no point in admiring what the shadow pointed to.

It's not about admiring the shadow in and of itself.
It's interesting how us gentiles, who boast of the freedom we have in Christ to indulge, or not indulge various things, won't give Messianics the freedom to worship the way they want to.

Or should we keep kissing our girlfriend's picture after she has returned? The only point I saw Paul and the other Jewish Apostles keeping the Feasts etc. was not to offend as they used those opportunities to reach the lost Jews.

There was no competing Roman system of Christian worship at the time of the Apostles. With the exception of a first day of the week meeting there was no other way to worship God except through the time table and method of the old system.

Which is why I think Jews who get saved gravitate toward worship according to the law. For them there is no other way to worship God. It's the only thing they know. But of course, the saved Jew now does through the Holy Spirit. And so can we, if we want to.

 

[Dino246]

What is it about 'sacred assembly' that you do not understand?

I see scripture saying to assemble together on the Sabbath.
What exactly is it you're not grasping here?

What you're not grasping is the clear distinction between the Levitical system of worship under the Law and the assembly of the ekklesia who are in Christ. Certainly there are significant similarities, and the "sacred assembly" of Leviticus is a shadow, but they are not the same thing.

The Levitical assembly ended with the rest of the Levitical practices in 70 AD. The Church is never commanded to gather on the Sabbath... period.