Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[presidente]

The types, patterns, symbols, macro-codes and explicit proclamation of the pre-trib rapture is literally all over the place in the bible.
Both OT and NT. I mean its just everywhere man.

How about show us the explicit proclamation of it in the scriptures? I just see allegorical interpretations of 'microcodes' and such as your evidence. The 'come up hither' and the 'not appointing unto wrath' interpretations.

Remember....the feast of firstfruits (CHURCH! CHURCH! CHURCH!) is the Barley harvest. The wheat harvest follows.......

The church is here when Jesus returns executing vengence on them that believe not in II Thessalonians 1.

 

[presidente]

Here's how some literal translations have the wording in Rev19:7 (about the marriage itself and the bride/wife [singular]):

Young's Literal Translation
may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready;


Smith's Literal Translation has the latter half of this verse, like this:
"[...] for the marriage of the Lamb came, and his wife prepared herself." [bold emphasis mine]


Worrell New Testament
Let us rejoice, and exult, and give the glory to Him; because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife made herself ready."



IOW, I don't think the Greek conveys that "the marriage" is just now (at this point) getting ready to take place, and that "the bride" is just now finished preparing herself for its occurrence. Verse 7 is stating the fact that the marriage came and the bride/wife [singular] prepared herself, as the set-up for what verse 9 is going to talk about, which is "the wedding feast/supper" (aka the earthly MK age getting ready to start, upon His return to the earth) involving "the [plural] guests" which this text says of them, "Blessed are those having been invited to...," which INVITATION to the wedding feast/supper will have been taking place all throughout the tribulation period (Matt24:14 speaks of that, as does Matt22:9-14, etc); and this "blessed" corresponds with about 8 other "blessed" passages speaking to same.

For example, Matt24:42-51 (esp.v.46 "blessed") parallel with Lk12:35-36,37,38,40,42-44,46-48 ("blessed") which starts out with "when he will RETURN from the wedding"... (i.e. as an already-wed Bridegroom)...THEN "the meal [G347]" (aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--notice that these passages refer to saints still living/existing on the earth upon His arrival. IOW, No saint is being lifted off of the earth, at that time-slot: this is His "return" to the earth Rev19, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age).

And note that "the bride/wife [singular]" is not the invited "guests [plural]"... these are distinct.

By Rev19, "the marriage" came (re: the bride/wife [singular])... and by Rev19, the "having been invited to the wedding feast/supper" has concluded on the earth (re: the guests [plural]), and up next is His return to the earth for "the wedding feast / supper / festivities" (elsewhere called "the meal [G347]" like in Lk12 I just mentioned), aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom

Look at the other verses right below this section in the chapter:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

 

[presidente]

Is your opinion rooted in Scripture?

"For some strange reason, there is NO mention of a rapture anywhere in Matt 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21. Let alone Rev 6 thru 19.

Crazy huh?"

Matthew 24-- the coming of he Son of Man and the gathering of the elect. Compare to Paul's reference to the rapture in II Thessalonians 2, the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him. I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at the coming of the Lord.

Is there any scripture that describes or predicts a pre-tribulational rapture... not stuff like 'Come up hither' but some solid evidence?

 

[presidente]

Actually, the text states, "shall be caught up together with them"... that means the harpazo (snatch / rapture / caught up action) occurs in one singular action for both at the same time, not two, as you seem to be suggesting.

No, I wasn't suggesting that.

The first resurrection occurs toward the end of the book of Revelation, before the thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The four beasts sing with them.

As I explained in past posts in other threads...

"antiphonal singing"

...also referenced / used in OT times.

I just pulled this quick description off the web as the first thing that popped up when doing a Search:

[quoting]

antiphonal singing, alternate singing by two choirs or singers. Antiphonal singing is of great antiquity and occurs in the folk and liturgical music of many cultures. Descriptions of it occur in the Old Testament.
antiphonal singing | music | Britannica

www.britannica.com/art/antiphonal-singing

[end quoting]

Do you think these cherubim-esque beasts are human also?

I assume you are referring to the "four living creatures".

In past posts I've pointed out how their descriptions match what we see in the four-directional plotment of Israel in the OT.

So whatever these "living creatures" are, I believe they are in association with the earthly-governmental aspects (and note the effects on the earth when the first 4 seals will be opened, of which each of those 4 living creatures are the ones saying "Come [and see]" [to John] regarding those effects)... Recall, the seals of Rev6 are equivalent to "the beginning of birth pangs" (and 1Th5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth pang" of those); and Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c is conveying the fact that what is going to be "shown" to John [4:1-chpt 19] are "things which must come to pass in quickness"... not unfold over the course of some near-2000-yrs... This is speaking of that specific, future, limited time-period commonly called the 7-yr Trib; that which leads up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19).

John sees the "24 elders" up in Heaven BEFORE Jesus will open the first seal.

And the "24 elders" are saying of themselves, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY..." (ONLY HUMANS can say such a thing). The manuscript evidence proves that Rev5:9 has the "24 elders" saying "US" (speaking of themselves and the ones they are also representing "out of EVERY nation..."); V.10 can say "them" (there are variant readings, "us" or "them"), and if so this is easily explained by the "antiphonal singing" that was common, mentioned above.

In the OT, there were not only the "24" divisions of priests, but in 1Chron25 there was the "24" divisions of the singers (mentioning "harps," and "psalteries [/earthen vessels]," and "cymbals"--deja vu? )

You are making some huge assumptions. John saw these elders.... at whatever point in time. We might guess 90 something AD, and saw them with the crowns when he saw the vision back then.

4:1 starts with "after these [things]... SHOW you what must take place after these [things]" (meaning, after "the things which ARE" which is described in chpts 2-3 and which are not said of THEM ['the things WHICH ARE'] are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" like the "future" aspects are said must, i.e. the 7-yr tribulation period)

You assume they are human elders.

They can only be humans, given what it is they say about themselves 5:9.

Do you make that assumption about the beast.

Do you mean "the four living creatures"?

And you want to set it in some pre-trib scenario for which you have no evidence from Jesus or Paul's writings, just trying to assume it into this scenario in Revelation. Those are a lot of assumptions.

 

[presidente]

As I explained in past posts in other threads...

"antiphonal singing"

...also referenced / used in OT times.

I just pulled this quick description off the web as the first thing that popped up when doing a Search:

[quoting]

antiphonal singing, alternate singing by two choirs or singers. Antiphonal singing is of great antiquity and occurs in the folk and liturgical music of many cultures. Descriptions of it occur in the Old Testament.
antiphonal singing | music | Britannica
View attachment 243857
www.britannica.com/art/antiphonal-singing

[end quoting]

I want you to think about what is actually the strongest evidence that the rapture is pre-trib. Is this it, or is that John was told to 'Come up hither'. If you really think about it, if this is your strongest evidence, then it really does make a lot of sense not to be pre-trib. There is no reason to think the parousia, the return of Christ, is either multiple events. 'That wicked' in the man of sin passage is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' coming. The rapture and resurrection occur at Jesus' coming. The first resurrection shows up near the end of the book of Revelation before the thousand years. The coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect happens 'after the tribulation' in Matthew 24. Then Paul refers to 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him' for something I think we would both agree is the rapture.

And what is the evidence for pre-trib? Assuming antiphonal singing, and assuming which part the elders in heaven get? Also, John had this revelation back in the first century, and you are assuming he spiritually time traveled to after a post-tribulational rapture to see these elders. And you are assuming, in addition to the time frame, that this is not their disembodied spirits, unlike the dead tribulational martyrs in heaven which pretribbers typically take to be disembodied spirits.

Is this your strongest evidence for pre-trib? Which do you think is stronger, this or John being told 'Come up hither?; Do you use that as evidence for pre-trib or is it just cv5?

Just seeing the evidence is pretty good evidence against pre-trib.

 

[Jackson123]

Ask yourself the question: who exactly is "they". Because it ain't "us".
We are coming WITH the Lord when He returns. We were harpazo-ed 7 years earlier.

Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

ac war with the saint and ac win

mean the Saint is still on earth
how ac win if the Saint already rapture

how

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The first resurrection occurs toward the end of the book of Revelation, before the thousand years.

The passage states, "Blessed and holy is the [one] having A PART in the resurrection the first [adjective]"... and we see that Greek word "first [adjective]" used elsewhere translated as "chief" where Paul says of himself that he is the "chief [adjective; same Greek word] of sinners" but this doesn't mean first-in-time to have ever occurred, right? Things can either be "first-in-time" or "first-in-quality"...

... and another evidence of this fact is that 1Cor15:22b-23 [re: resurrection] speaks of the future occurrences in the following way: "but each [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK," meaning, there doesn't remain only one at one singular point in time. Rev20:6 is just saying, "Blessed is the [one] having A PART in the resurrection the first," it is not making the point that this is the first point in time that anyone will have been resurrected.

 

[Jackson123]

The passage states, "Blessed and holy is the [one] having A PART in the resurrection the first [adjective]"... and we see that Greek word "first [adjective]" used elsewhere translated as "chief" where Paul says of himself that he is the "chief [adjective; same Greek word] of sinners" but this doesn't mean first-in-time to have ever occurred, right? Things can either be "first-in-time" or "first-in-quality"...

... and another evidence of this fact is that 1Cor15:22b-23 [re: resurrection] speaks of the future occurrences in the following way: "but each [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK," meaning, there doesn't remain only one at one singular point in time. Rev20:6 is just saying, "Blessed is the [one] having A PART in the resurrection the first," it is not making the point that this is the first point in time that anyone will have been resurrected.

Look odd
if first mean leader

example
1 Tess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

if first in this verse mean leader than it mean the dead leader first
how about the non leader dead

how about non leader alive

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Also, John had this revelation back in the first century, and you are assuming he spiritually time traveled to after a post-tribulational rapture to see these elders.

I'm not assuming... I'm following the timing indicators supplied in the text itself. I've mentioned those references repeatedly.

And grasping that the seals ARE "the beginning of birth pangs" (being both described the same);

And their timing also evidenced by the particular wording in the Olivet Discourse (regarding them), especially that "BEFORE all these [beginning of birth pangs]," the events surround 70ad must happen (that's Lk21 informing of this fact), whereas Matthew 24 starts out with them (vv.4-8) and unfolds from there...

...and that whole time-period (described there) leading up to and concluding with Matt24:29-31, which is parallel Isa27:12-13,9 (see WHO, and TO WHAT LOCATION, and the MANNER in which they are gathered ["ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel," not "AS ONE" as WE/"the Church which is His body" will be!] and BY WHOM they are gathered--all of which is wholly distinct from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event). Compare also VERSE 9 (Is27) with that of ROMANS 11! (and Dan9:24!)

And you are assuming, in addition to the time frame, that this is not their disembodied spirits, unlike the dead tribulational martyrs in heaven which pretribbers typically take to be disembodied spirits.

No one will be awarded "crowns" before Paul tells us will occur "IN THAT DAY" (not the day he dies),... "and not to [him] only," he adds (speaking of the same "IN THAT DAY"... not the individual points in time when each believer dies).

Also, as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" in Rev5:4 that a searching-judgment has already been concluded by this point (chpts 4-5 being a court-room-type setting); the Greek word in 5:4 for "was found" is also used of Paul being brought before the judgment-seat / bema (of men / humans on earth) in the latter parts of Acts. Again, being awarded "crowns" will only take place AFTER our Rapture (not upon the death of believers, in their/our disembodied spirits, tho they [or we, if we die] will indeed be "present / at home with the Lord" at that point)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ P.S. And Paul calls that "disembodied spirit" thing we'll be in, after we DIE, as "unclothed" in the 2Cor5 passage (whereas "clothed upon" in that passage refers to being immediately clothed-upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first, in that 2Cor5 passage)


2Cor5 -

--"unclothed" means being part from a body for a time UPON DEATH of the believer [re: the Church which is His body"];

--"clothed upon" means being immediately clothed-upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first (which occurs at our Rapture time-slot)

 

[studentoftheword]

https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

I say ---Folks --just because we may not believe in the Rapture that does not mean it will not happen ----and the Church (believers ) are never mentioned again after Revelations 3 ----why cause they are gone -

the 7 year tribulation is for all unbelievers who have not received Christ ----many will receive Christ during the 7 year Tribulation -----the whole premise for the 7 year Tribulation is to save as many unbeliever as God can ----The Hardened hearts have to be softened somehow to here the message that the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 will be preaching to the unbelievers around the whole word ------

-Revelation 4 starts in heaven ----

Revelation 4
New International Version
The Throne in Heaven

 

[Randy4u2c]

In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?


I don't see multiple returns of Christ in scripture, so I can't make the distinction since I don't see it in scripture. But what does pre-trib eschatology say about this?

 

[Randy4u2c]

Why does Jesus come as a thief in the night? Satan will come at the 6th seal, 6th vial and 6th trump (666) pretending to be God and will deceive the whole world. If you are fooled into worshipping Satan as God, Jesus will come as a thief in the night, at the 7th trump, because you think he is already here.

 

[Jackson123]

https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

I say ---Folks --just because we may not believe in the Rapture that does not mean it will not happen ----and the Church (believers ) are never mentioned again after Revelations 3 ----why cause they are gone -

the 7 year tribulation is for all unbelievers who have not received Christ ----many will receive Christ during the 7 year Tribulation -----the whole premise for the 7 year Tribulation is to save as many unbeliever as God can ----The Hardened hearts have to be softened somehow to here the message that the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 will be preaching to the unbelievers around the whole word ------

-Revelation 4 starts in heaven ----

Revelation 4
New International Version
The Throne in Heaven

no
rapture after gt
2 Tess 2

The Man of Lawlessness
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Look at the other verses right below this section in the chapter:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

What about this passage do you want me to look at, specifically?

I would just point out (as I have in past threads), the word for "armies" here is never used in the plural when referring to "angels" (it is always in the singular in that case).

I'm not sure what point you are wanting me to see, that would agree with your "post-trib rapture [/caught up / snatched]" viewpoint.


Also, in v.14 (the part just after the section I emphasized in your quote above) says, in the Greek, "HAVING BEEN CLOTHED [perfect participle] in..." ("perfect tense" meaning, "action completed at a specific point of time in past, with results continuing into the present...".
But this text doesn't give us any indication of how far in the "past" (from this perspective) they were "having been clothed," it's just making the point that those are who are coming down out of "heaven" with Him at that point in the chronology.

Make sense?






[This, addressed to "the Church which is His body": "WHEN ______, then shall ye also appear with [G4862] Him in glory"--that is, the entire Church which is His body (ALL those having been saved "in this present age [singular]")]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Look odd
if first mean leader

example
1 Tess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

if first in this verse mean leader than it mean the dead leader first

Please notice, I was referring in my post to the word "first [ADJECTIVE]".

The verse you have quoted is the word "first" as an ADVERB, regarding which [form] I was not speaking.

Hope that helps clarify. = )

 

[Evmur]

Cause & effect.
God's wrath is poured out on his enemy precisely because the enemy has been persecuting & killing believers.
"how long O Lord until you avenge our blood?" They ask.

Totally, 100%

Man tribulates the believer and God pours His wrath upon the tribulators.

 

[Evmur]

Ask yourself the question: who exactly is "they". Because it ain't "us".
We are coming WITH the Lord when He returns. We were harpazo-ed 7 years earlier.

There is only one coming in the clouds with great power and glory ... in the gospels the same as Thess. we go to meet Him in the clouds.

We come with Him to judge after the 1, 000 years.

 

[Evmur]

Again, you've left out a verse.

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

you got there before me ...