Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[presidente]

Already have. Probably several dozens of times by now.

And I probably have read many versions of it and seen someone trying to make pqssages fit with pretrib.

A passage laying out a timeline which shows a gathering/rapture occuring before the tribulation or something that shows multiple comings of Christ afterthe ascension would be a good place to start.

Didnt you basically argue for two ascensions? Where do you get that

 

[cv5]

And I probably have read many versions of it and seen someone trying to make pqssages fit with pretrib.

A passage laying out a timeline which shows a gathering/rapture occuring before the tribulation or something that shows multiple comings of Christ afterthe ascension would be a good place to start.

Didnt you basically argue for two ascensions? Where do you get that

Like I said....1 dimensional/linear thinking will not get the job done. Move to 2D, 3D or better yet 4D and you will get the picture.

At any rate....the pre-trib rapture is THE piece of the puzzle that completes the eschatological mosaic. If you have the the pre-trib rapture in place....every word, passage and statement of Jesus and the NT writers fits perfectly. No gaps, no flaws, no errors, no omissions.

 

[presidente]

Like I said....1 dimensional/linear thinking will not get the job done. Move to 2D, 3D or better yet 4D and you will get the picture.

At any rate....the pre-trib rapture is THE piece of the puzzle that completes the eschatological mosaic. If you have the the pre-trib rapture in place....every word, passage and statement of Jesus and the NT writers fits perfectly. No gaps, no flaws, no errors, no omissions.

It fits post trib better--without having to divide references to Christ's coming arbitrarily into two events.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Do you have scripture that says that the 'day' is a seven year time period and that the rapture occurs first? If the 'day' refers to the seven year time period, then you have to scramble to make it fit with chapter 2.

I didn't say that the 'day' is a seven year time period;

...read my post earlier in this thread, I said "the day of the Lord" spans clear from the beginning of the 7-yr period all the way through to the end of the 1000-year Millennial Kingdom

...and is entirely earthly-located; with its "judgments" unfolding upon the earth followed by "blessing" on same (that is, spanning also the entire MK age)--Neither aspect being merely a singular 24-hr day kind of 'day'; and its first aspect--the Trib yrs [7]--is what the "in the night" refers to; whereas "the sun of righteousness arise" refers to His Second Coming to the earth point in time, Rev19. Both of those are included in "the DOTL," as well as is the 1000-yr reign on/over the earth.

1Th5:1-3 speaks of its arrival point in time (the INITIAL "birth pang" of many more to follow on from that one--Again, that's not at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot; rather, is speaking of the DOTL's ARRIVAL point in time well-prior to that point);
2Th2:2 is Paul speaking of the false claim he did not want the Thessalonians to be "shaken in mind" or "troubled" by, regarding its claim "that the day of the Lord is already here / is present," that is, that the time period involving judgments was already present and unfolding upon the earth in their own present-day experience / existence, which would be a perfectly reasonable thing for them to believe (and be "troubled" by) given the very negative experiences they were indeed enduring, per 2Th1:4 "persecutions and tribulations" (1:4 being part of this very same context that chpt 2:1-8 is also still addressing).

If Paul had taught them "post-trib," why would such a claim (2:2) "trouble" them or cause them to be "shaken in mind," and require Paul's second letter, as it would be something to have been fully expected; recall, they were already informed (Paul says they "know perfectly") what the day of the Lord is and particularly the manner of its ARRIVAL (1Th5:1-3), so what Paul is supplying in 2Th2 is the sequence concerning "our Rapture" and its relation to the time period known as "the DOTL" (in view of a false claim about it, that is, the false claim about the TIME-PERIOD being already here / present)... and he repeats this sequence 3x in this chpt 2, which agrees with the sequence not only in his previous letter to them, but in all other passages covering this subject as well (e.g. the 24 elders already wearing "stephanous/crowns" which Paul said would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" [not upon death of the Christian], and are wearing the "white himatiois/garments" and are sitting on "thrones" and are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..." BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the first seal at the START of that 7-year period, aka the INITIAL "birth pang" which will unfold upon the earth, see also Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "tis-G5100-'A CERTAIN ONE'" that the warning Jesus gave specifies--the equivalent of the first seal rider on the white horse with a "bow" ["bow" often meaning "deception"], which is the "whose COMING/parousia" of the man of sin 2Th2:8a,9a, the moment he is "revealed" at the START of those 7 years [not 3.5 yrs later when he does the later 2Th2:4 "sitteth in the temple of God" thing]... but that that text informs ONE THING must happen "FIRST" before he is thereafter "revealed" and thus the day of the Lord time period be indeed "present"... unfolding upon the earth with its "judgments"--that "in the night" aspect OF the entire very-long spans of time known as the DOTL).


Hopefully that serves to help clarify the misunderstanding that only the "7-yr period" is the 'day' (not what I said = ) ).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Didnt you basically argue for two ascensions? Where do you get that

That wasn't "cv5" (at least not in this thread), that was me (I do think he agreed, as I recall). = )


--John 20:17 is what occurred on His Resurrection Day / ON Firstfruit ("I ASCEND" [active]), and He TELLS MM to "go... and SAY UNTO"--that's the first time He ascended (no one SAW it take place--HIS WORD to MM saying it, John 20:17-18; in view of this passage, esp.v.18 and both of its distinct parts, see also Jesus' words to [and about] His disciples later that same night, Mark 16:9-11,14); think about WHY Jesus told MM to "GO to my brethren, and SAY UNTO them," since He Himself was going to be present among them later that same evening and could tell them Himself, if He'd be talking about the "40-days-later" thing... no, this is something He was doing THAT VERY DAY (ON "FIRSTFRUIT" Lev23:10-12), "I ASCEND"... before later that evening going to see them Himself (see also Luke 24:39, where that very evening He tells them to "handle Me and see" [regarding His having "flesh and bones"--not just a "spirit"]);

--Acts 1 (some "40 days" later) is the second time, this time "visibly" and which is told them that this is how He shall "so come in like manner as ye have SEEN Him traveling into heaven" (referring to the time of His Second Coming to the earth point in time Rev19; Rev1:7, Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9, etc--when thereafter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commences, aka "the wedding FEAST / supper / festivities" [elsewhere known as "the meal [G347]"]).




And what I'd said is that this is the same pattern...

 

[presidente]

If Paul had taught them "post-trib," why would such a claim (2:2) "trouble" them or cause them to be "shaken in mind," and require Paul's second letter, as it would be something to have been fully expected;

If Paul had taught them pre-trib, why would they be troubled? Whatever we being taught did not match with what Paul had already taught them, and Paul had to reteach an clarify.

Pretrib assumes stuff there is no evidence for in scripture--- multiple returns of Christ (or the return of Christ being redefined to mean something that lasts for a period of years or something like that).

There is no reason for me to accepted spinned interpretations that try to make these passages fit with post trib.


Look at the wording of these verses from

II Thessalonians 1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Look-- coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is placed first in II Thessalonians, then the gathering together unto Him. In Matthew 24, we see 'Some of man coming' placed first, then the gathering together of his elect.

Matthew 24 sets this 'after the tribulation of those days' and also describes it as 'great tribulation' from which we get that term.


And notice the falling away compared with many being offended and the love of many waxing cold earlier in Matthew 24.
II Thessalonians 2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matthew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


And again Matthew 24 and I Thessalonians 4
Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice that I Thessalonians 4 says 'the coming of the Lord'-- not 'one of the comings of the Lord.' We are waiting for the coming of the Lord. Matthew 24 sets the coming of the Son of Man ___after the tribulation, describing it as 'great tribulation.' Both passages describe the trumpet.




ecall, they were already informed (Paul says they "know perfectly") what the day of the Lord is and particularly the manner of its ARRIVAL (1Th5:1-3), so what Paul is supplying in 2Th2 is the sequence concerning "our Rapture" and its relation to the time period known as "the DOTL" (in view of a false claim about it, that is, the false claim about the TIME-PERIOD being already here / present)... and he repeats this sequence 3x in this chpt 2, which agrees with the sequence not only in his previous letter to them, but in all other passages covering this subject as well (e.g. the 24 elders already wearing "stephanous/crowns" which Paul said would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" [not upon death of the Christian], and are wearing the "white himatiois/garments" and are sitting on "thrones" and are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..."[/quote]

The four beasts sing with them. Do you think these cherubim-esque beasts are human also? You are making some huge assumptions. John saw these elders.... at whatever point in time. We might guess 90 something AD, and saw them with the crowns when he saw the vision back then. You assume they are human elders. Do you make that assumption about the beast. And you want to set it in some pre-trib scenario for which you have no evidence from Jesus or Paul's writings, just trying to assume it into this scenario in Revelation. Those are a lot of assumptions.

 

[presidente]

Like I said....1 dimensional/linear thinking will not get the job done. Move to 2D, 3D or better yet 4D and you will get the picture.

Your making some kind of 'linear' time assumption about the elders, putting their interaction with John at some point in linear time in the future.

Instead of all this stuff about 2D or 3D thinking, how about show some scripture from Paul or Jesus or someone that tells us there will be multiple returns of Christ, instead of reading it into the book of Revelation with interpretations of allegory. Please read my post to DivineWaterMark about the parralells between Matthew 24, II Thessalonians 2, and I Thessalonians 1.

 

[cv5]

Your making some kind of 'linear' time assumption about the elders, putting their interaction with John at some point in linear time in the future.

Instead of all this stuff about 2D or 3D thinking, how about show some scripture from Paul or Jesus or someone that tells us there will be multiple returns of Christ, instead of reading it into the book of Revelation with interpretations of allegory. Please read my post to DivineWaterMark about the parralells between Matthew 24, II Thessalonians 2, and I Thessalonians 1.

Believe it or not I look at the Scripture in terms of a 3D dataset. Not linear not flat. Include a "time dimension" and ostensibly 4D.

 

[cv5]

If Paul had taught them pre-trib, why would they be troubled? Whatever we being taught did not match with what Paul had already taught them, and Paul had to reteach an clarify.

Pretrib assumes stuff there is no evidence for in scripture--- multiple returns of Christ (or the return of Christ being redefined to mean something that lasts for a period of years or something like that).

There is no reason for me to accepted spinned interpretations that try to make these passages fit with post trib.


Look at the wording of these verses from

II Thessalonians 1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Look-- coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is placed first in II Thessalonians, then the gathering together unto Him. In Matthew 24, we see 'Some of man coming' placed first, then the gathering together of his elect.

Matthew 24 sets this 'after the tribulation of those days' and also describes it as 'great tribulation' from which we get that term.


And notice the falling away compared with many being offended and the love of many waxing cold earlier in Matthew 24.
II Thessalonians 2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matthew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


And again Matthew 24 and I Thessalonians 4
Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice that I Thessalonians 4 says 'the coming of the Lord'-- not 'one of the comings of the Lord.' We are waiting for the coming of the Lord. Matthew 24 sets the coming of the Son of Man ___after the tribulation, describing it as 'great tribulation.' Both passages describe the trumpet.




ecall, they were already informed (Paul says they "know perfectly") what the day of the Lord is and particularly the manner of its ARRIVAL (1Th5:1-3), so what Paul is supplying in 2Th2 is the sequence concerning "our Rapture" and its relation to the time period known as "the DOTL" (in view of a false claim about it, that is, the false claim about the TIME-PERIOD being already here / present)... and he repeats this sequence 3x in this chpt 2, which agrees with the sequence not only in his previous letter to them, but in all other passages covering this subject as well (e.g. the 24 elders already wearing "stephanous/crowns" which Paul said would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" [not upon death of the Christian], and are wearing the "white himatiois/garments" and are sitting on "thrones" and are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..."

See 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7. There it is again man. Nope.....no 7 year tribulation for believers.

BTW.....1 Thes 5:4 has nothing to do with any notion that Thessalonian believers are endowed wth some special divine knowledge of the precise start the DOTL. Nobody has that information other than God the Father.

 

[cv5]

If Paul had taught them pre-trib, why would they be troubled? Whatever we being taught did not match with what Paul had already taught them, and Paul had to reteach an clarify.

Because they thought they had missed the rapture of course. Implied but not overtly stated....of course.

BTW.....the typical middle eastern thought/teaching process absolutely begs for assumptions.

 

[presidente]

See 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7. There it is again man. Nope.....no 7 year tribulation for believers.

BTW.....1 Thes 5:4 has nothing to do with any notion that Thessalonian believers are endowed wth some special divine knowledge of the precise start the DOTL. Nobody has that information other than God the Father.

What is your point?

As far as knowing the day and hour. In 33 AD or whatever year it was, no one knew the day and hour. As the day approaches, we should see signs that it is near. But the day of Christ does not occur until the man of sin is revealed. That wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. They that are Christ's will be made alive at His coming. The rapture and resurrection occur at Jesus' coming.

 

[presidente]

Because they thought they had missed the rapture of course. Implied but not overtly stated....of course.

That is possible because there were men teaching the resurrection had already occurred who overthrew the faith of some. But that would require forgetting, letting go of, or not knowing a Biblical eschatology.

 

[Runningman]

Pre-tribulation rapture theology usually seperates the day of the Lord and the return of Christ as occuring seperately, but they occur simultaneously. That’s required to make the pre-trib doctrine work.

Anyhoo, I have just thought I would post at least one or two comments here and see if it helps anyone. I guess we all probably have our minds made up on this though.

Matthew 16:27
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mark 13:24-27
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

2 Thess. 1:7-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thess. 2:1,2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[jb]

Like I said....1 dimensional/linear thinking will not get the job done. Move to 2D, 3D or better yet 4D and you will get the picture.

At any rate....the pre-trib rapture is THE piece of the puzzle that completes the eschatological mosaic. If you have the the pre-trib rapture in place....every word, passage and statement of Jesus and the NT writers fits perfectly. No gaps, no flaws, no errors, no omissions.

What piffle!

 

[cv5]

What is your point?

The scribes and pharisees were in the dark too.
To which Jesus implored "have you never read"......

 

[cv5]

Pre-tribulation rapture theology usually seperates the day of the Lord and the return of Christ as occuring seperately, but they occur simultaneously. That’s required to make the pre-trib doctrine work.

Not quite correct. The DOTL extends to infinity IMO. Beyond even the GWT judgement and the NH/NE.

What we believe is that the 70th week of Daniel (the trib/GT) are merely the START of the DOTL (has to start sometime right?). The SC just happens to occur precisely at the END of the 70th week. This 70 week has as one of its primary objectives the final redemption of Jacob. Which is why the 70th week prophecy of Dan 9 is directed to Israel alone.

All of this FULLY supported by vast tracts of Scripture.

BTW, no NT writer warns that born-again believing CHRISTIANS that they are guaranteed to suffer Gods tribulation wrath. Including Jesus in John 14. On the contrary, it is unerringly consistent that we will receive rest, comfort, relief while everyone else suffers through that period of time. And Jesus says he will be taking us to the Fathers house.....no mention of any wrath whatsoever. Confirmed in Rev 3:10.

 

[cv5]

The gospels of Matt, Mark and Luke talk about Jesus coming to the EARTH (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), replete with florid descriptions of the predicament of Jerusalem and Israel.

The gospel of John is written primarily to the Church and talks about Jesus coming FOR his Church (Ch 14) to take them FROM the earth. And....there are NO passages dealing with the SC.

I detect a pattern here.....

 

[cv5]

The gospels of Matt, Mark and Luke talk about Jesus coming to the EARTH (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), replete with florid descriptions of the predicament of Jerusalem and Israel.

The gospel of John is written primarily to the Church and talks about Jesus coming FOR his Church (Ch 14) to take them FROM the earth. And....there are NO passages dealing with the SC.

I detect a pattern here.....

The point is....the John 14 passages ARE the Coming of Christ.....for believing Christians. Oh....and no mention of Israel, Jews, Jerusalem or any other earthly component.

This in stark contrast to the other 3 gospels.

Hope that helps presidente.

 

[Jackson123]

It fits post trib better--without having to divide references to Christ's coming arbitrarily into two events.

2 tes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

paul said pretrib is lie

 

[Jackson123]

What is your point?

As far as knowing the day and hour. In 33 AD or whatever year it was, no one knew the day and hour. As the day approaches, we should see signs that it is near. But the day of Christ does not occur until the man of sin is revealed. That wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. They that are Christ's will be made alive at His coming. The rapture and resurrection occur at Jesus' coming.

I believe the man of sin reveal on the second half of tribulation
In the first half 2 witnesses in session if any man say against God will be killed by the 2 witnesses whit their mouth so the man of sin can not be reveal or killed
i think 2 witnesses is the one that prevent ac to reveal