Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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Well....lets just say I am sowing....not strutting. Shall we?
And ponder my question here....
https://christianchat.com/threads/thief-in-the-night-pretrib-or-second-coming.207494/post-4931205
And ponder my question here....
https://christianchat.com/threads/thief-in-the-night-pretrib-or-second-coming.207494/post-4931205
The way I see it, when Jesus return a lot of things happen at once. The rapture, the AC destroyed, the day of the Lord. I’m quite certain of of this. Notice the signs of the DOTL in Isaiah 13, Matthew 24, and the 6th seal of Revelation 6. It’s also mentioned in Acts 2, quoting the prophet Joel.
Acts 2:17-21
17“ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
There’s subtle differences in the wording between the various scriptures I referenced here and those subtle differences are typically capitalized on by pre-tribbers to say they aren’t the same events, but you’ll notice the context in all of them is in regards to the day of the Lord. This is certain to me.
1. The great tribulation
2. Jesus returns
3. The rapture of the church
4. The day of the Lord
5. The millennial kingdom
6. New Heavens and New Earth
7.Onward to eternity.
I’m certain this is the order of things to come.
Acts 2:17-21
17“ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
There’s subtle differences in the wording between the various scriptures I referenced here and those subtle differences are typically capitalized on by pre-tribbers to say they aren’t the same events, but you’ll notice the context in all of them is in regards to the day of the Lord. This is certain to me.
1. The great tribulation
2. Jesus returns
3. The rapture of the church
4. The day of the Lord
5. The millennial kingdom
6. New Heavens and New Earth
7.Onward to eternity.
I’m certain this is the order of things to come.
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Nope. No rapture in those passages...
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
FYI....We are ALREADY redeemed in the blood of the Lamb. And glorified as far as God is concerned.
No so with Israel. Yet. To whom that verse pertains.
Mar 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
FYI....We are ALREADY redeemed in the blood of the Lamb. And glorified as far as God is concerned.
No so with Israel. Yet. To whom that verse pertains.
Mar 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
FYI
Our salvation is not complete until the redemption of our bodies.
Rom 8
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Luke 21
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Our salvation is not complete until the redemption of our bodies.
Rom 8
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Luke 21
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
You are missing a verse there. He gathers his elect when all the people of the earth see him in glory.
Our gathering is firmly linked to his highly visible return to earth. The second coming.
Matt 24
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Our gathering is firmly linked to his highly visible return to earth. The second coming.
Matt 24
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
For the Church.....we simply get our glorified bodies at the rapture.
That would be these people noted below....exclusively. Born again Christians.
1Co 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them (verse 18!) that slept.
(The Church....exclusively.)
In the prerequisite order of course. Redemption itself is a done deal.
Nice sequence here.....matches Rev 19:7-11 perfectly, where it indicates that the Bride is now an already married WIFE who
will return WITH her husband Jesus.....FOR judgement upon the earth. Not to SUFFER this same judgement!
1Co 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
That would be these people noted below....exclusively. Born again Christians.
1Co 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them (verse 18!) that slept.
(The Church....exclusively.)
In the prerequisite order of course. Redemption itself is a done deal.
Nice sequence here.....matches Rev 19:7-11 perfectly, where it indicates that the Bride is now an already married WIFE who
will return WITH her husband Jesus.....FOR judgement upon the earth. Not to SUFFER this same judgement!
1Co 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Right, I figured there’d be those who just deny it. I personally don’t see the rapture as a thing to interpret outside of the contexts they reside in. Eschatology isn’t a salvation issue. Salvation comes through our faith in Christ and all He did for us.
Whether we understand rapture accurately or not does not change the message of the cross. However, I do see it as a possible opening for apostasy. I speculate the great apostasy will be mostly disenfranchised and disillusioned pre-tribbers who were disappointed, maybe grater than 50% of the church will fall away before the return of Christ.
Whether we understand rapture accurately or not does not change the message of the cross. However, I do see it as a possible opening for apostasy. I speculate the great apostasy will be mostly disenfranchised and disillusioned pre-tribbers who were disappointed, maybe grater than 50% of the church will fall away before the return of Christ.
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Rapture has already happened....7 years earlier. Which of course matches perfectly with the Jewish wedding ceremony where the Husband harpazo-es the Bride and takes her to the Fathers house for SEVEN DAYS.
THEN the wedding supper....with GUESTS. Guests like John the Baptist.
Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
THEN the wedding supper....with GUESTS. Guests like John the Baptist.
Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Nevertheless....verses pertaining to the rapture and SC populate the NT.....at a rate of one out of every seven.
In fact I have just found that out this morning listening to this sermon.
I Thessalonians 3:1-4:12 (Joe Focht) | Blue Letter Bible Audio
In fact I have just found that out this morning listening to this sermon.
I Thessalonians 3:1-4:12 (Joe Focht) | Blue Letter Bible Audio
The types, patterns, symbols, macro-codes and explicit proclamation of the pre-trib rapture is literally all over the place in the bible.
Both OT and NT. I mean its just everywhere man.
Remember....the feast of firstfruits (CHURCH! CHURCH! CHURCH!) is the Barley harvest. The wheat harvest follows.......
Both OT and NT. I mean its just everywhere man.
Remember....the feast of firstfruits (CHURCH! CHURCH! CHURCH!) is the Barley harvest. The wheat harvest follows.......
Here's how some literal translations have the wording in Rev19:7 (about the marriage itself and the bride/wife [singular]):
Young's Literal Translation
may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready;
Smith's Literal Translation has the latter half of this verse, like this:
"[...] for the marriage of the Lamb came, and his wife prepared herself." [bold emphasis mine]
Worrell New Testament
Let us rejoice, and exult, and give the glory to Him; because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife made herself ready."
IOW, I don't think the Greek conveys that "the marriage" is just now (at this point) getting ready to take place, and that "the bride" is just now finished preparing herself for its occurrence. Verse 7 is stating the fact that the marriage came and the bride/wife [singular] prepared herself, as the set-up for what verse 9 is going to talk about, which is "the wedding feast/supper" (aka the earthly MK age getting ready to start, upon His return to the earth) involving "the [plural] guests" which this text says of them, "Blessed are those having been invited to...," which INVITATION to the wedding feast/supper will have been taking place all throughout the tribulation period (Matt24:14 speaks of that, as does Matt22:9-14, etc); and this "blessed" corresponds with about 8 other "blessed" passages speaking to same.
For example, Matt24:42-51 (esp.v.46 "blessed") parallel with Lk12:35-36,37,38,40,42-44,46-48 ("blessed") which starts out with "when he will RETURN from the wedding"... (i.e. as an already-wed Bridegroom)...THEN "the meal [G347]" (aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--notice that these passages refer to saints still living/existing on the earth upon His arrival. IOW, No saint is being lifted off of the earth, at that time-slot: this is His "return" to the earth Rev19, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age).
And note that "the bride/wife [singular]" is not the invited "guests [plural]"... these are distinct.
By Rev19, "the marriage" came (re: the bride/wife [singular])... and by Rev19, the "having been invited to the wedding feast/supper" has concluded on the earth (re: the guests [plural]), and up next is His return to the earth for "the wedding feast / supper / festivities" (elsewhere called "the meal [G347]" like in Lk12 I just mentioned), aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom
Young's Literal Translation
may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready;
Smith's Literal Translation has the latter half of this verse, like this:
"[...] for the marriage of the Lamb came, and his wife prepared herself." [bold emphasis mine]
Worrell New Testament
Let us rejoice, and exult, and give the glory to Him; because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife made herself ready."
IOW, I don't think the Greek conveys that "the marriage" is just now (at this point) getting ready to take place, and that "the bride" is just now finished preparing herself for its occurrence. Verse 7 is stating the fact that the marriage came and the bride/wife [singular] prepared herself, as the set-up for what verse 9 is going to talk about, which is "the wedding feast/supper" (aka the earthly MK age getting ready to start, upon His return to the earth) involving "the [plural] guests" which this text says of them, "Blessed are those having been invited to...," which INVITATION to the wedding feast/supper will have been taking place all throughout the tribulation period (Matt24:14 speaks of that, as does Matt22:9-14, etc); and this "blessed" corresponds with about 8 other "blessed" passages speaking to same.
For example, Matt24:42-51 (esp.v.46 "blessed") parallel with Lk12:35-36,37,38,40,42-44,46-48 ("blessed") which starts out with "when he will RETURN from the wedding"... (i.e. as an already-wed Bridegroom)...THEN "the meal [G347]" (aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--notice that these passages refer to saints still living/existing on the earth upon His arrival. IOW, No saint is being lifted off of the earth, at that time-slot: this is His "return" to the earth Rev19, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age).
And note that "the bride/wife [singular]" is not the invited "guests [plural]"... these are distinct.
By Rev19, "the marriage" came (re: the bride/wife [singular])... and by Rev19, the "having been invited to the wedding feast/supper" has concluded on the earth (re: the guests [plural]), and up next is His return to the earth for "the wedding feast / supper / festivities" (elsewhere called "the meal [G347]" like in Lk12 I just mentioned), aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom
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Actually, the text states, "shall be caught up together with them"... that means the harpazo (snatch / rapture / caught up action) occurs in one singular action for both at the same time, not two, as you seem to be suggesting.
The verb (caught-up) and the adverb (together) must be attached; this conveys one singular snatch-action, rather than one group arriving in the air first ahead of the other group: no, "caught up together with".
The "shall rise first" speaks of their dead bodies being resurrected ('to stand again'); and then after that we are "caught up together with" them to the meeting of the Lord in the air, "and so [in this manner] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (no "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" prior to the "caught up / snatch" moment... so the dead in Christ in their SPIRITS--tho indeed "present / at home with the Lord" in heaven now--is not what is being referenced when this text says, "them also which sleep through Jesus will God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"... coz the "caught up" action is the means by which we "so shall we ever be G4862 - unioned-with the Lord," see.
"The dead in Christ" are not "G4862'd" PRIOR TO their being "caught up together with" the "we which are alive and remain unto...," as though it is somehow saying He will bring them "unioned-with Him" on His way down to the "in the air" meeting where the rest of us will be caught up to meet THEM. No. Not what the grammar and Greek wording is saying... as some suggest.
The verb (caught-up) and the adverb (together) must be attached; this conveys one singular snatch-action, rather than one group arriving in the air first ahead of the other group: no, "caught up together with".
The "shall rise first" speaks of their dead bodies being resurrected ('to stand again'); and then after that we are "caught up together with" them to the meeting of the Lord in the air, "and so [in this manner] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (no "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" prior to the "caught up / snatch" moment... so the dead in Christ in their SPIRITS--tho indeed "present / at home with the Lord" in heaven now--is not what is being referenced when this text says, "them also which sleep through Jesus will God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"... coz the "caught up" action is the means by which we "so shall we ever be G4862 - unioned-with the Lord," see.
"The dead in Christ" are not "G4862'd" PRIOR TO their being "caught up together with" the "we which are alive and remain unto...," as though it is somehow saying He will bring them "unioned-with Him" on His way down to the "in the air" meeting where the rest of us will be caught up to meet THEM. No. Not what the grammar and Greek wording is saying... as some suggest.
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