The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[FRB72]

I belong to a Methodist church because it is the closest, which is the NT basis for church formation--originally in houses.

I also belong to a Baptist Church, because that is how I was raised and the denomination in which I was ordained, but it is rather far away.

I also belong to a Bible Church, because it had the best Sunday teaching I could find for awhile, but it is also rather far for attending frequently.

About the time I graduated from High School I realized that I only knew how salvation worked and needed to learn more black box doctrines in order to become a stronger Christian and better witness as my introverted personality allowed.

By reading the Bible through in four translations and taking notes in the margins to connect dots I learned a lot, augmented by seminary classes required for becoming a degreed minister and chaplain.

At this point in my life, as I continue to LGW my main ministry is passing on the results of my good fight via our website and CC before I pass on, which might not be for a few years, but we should always be ready.

You raise an interesting question - the knowability of what we are terming “black box” doctrines. Certainly some black boxes can be safely opened and understood by suitably qualified engineers. Others are intended to be for the manufacturer only.

I still attend both a Methodist aligned and a Calvin aligned fellowship. I became a Christian in 1982 and have heard a variety of views.

Like you, my preferred fellowship is the one that takes place in relationships with others in homes. God bless!!

 

[GWH]

You raise an interesting question - the knowability of what we are terming “black box” doctrines. Certainly some black boxes can be safely opened and understood by suitably qualified engineers. Others are intended to be for the manufacturer only.

I still attend both a Methodist aligned and a Calvin aligned fellowship. I became a Christian in 1982 and have heard a variety of views.

Like you, my preferred fellowship is the one that takes place in relationships with others in homes. God bless!!

Yes, and I certainly do not expect to be able to understand every doctrine. Just today I began a thread asking for help with understanding how doctrine regarding angels jibes or harmonizes with the Holy Spirit's relationship with saints. However, if I can learn how some block boxes work, anyone sincerely seeking with an open mind can do so, because they aren't rocket science but only require both-and thinking in order to connect dots in GW, which is not written with everything about an issue in one passage.

Yes, and right now CC is functioning as a home.

 

[BillG]

I belong to a Methodist church because it is the closest, which is the NT basis for church formation--originally in houses.

I also belong to a Baptist Church, because that is how I was raised and the denomination in which I was ordained, but it is rather far away.

I also belong to a Bible Church, because it had the best Sunday teaching I could find for awhile, but it is also rather far for attending frequently.

About the time I graduated from High School I realized that I only knew how salvation worked and needed to learn more black box doctrines in order to become a stronger Christian and better witness as my introverted personality allowed.

By reading the Bible through in four translations and taking notes in the margins to connect dots I learned a lot, augmented by seminary classes required for becoming a degreed minister and chaplain.

At this point in my life, as I continue to LGW my main ministry is passing on the results of my good fight via our website and CC before I pass on, which might not be for a few years, but we should always be ready.

Hi brother,

I have been following this thread and only contributed a couple of times.
Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't get most of your abbreviations.
One being above "as I continue to LGW my main ministry"

I don't know that that means.

Thanks

Bill

 

[studier]

Have you ever knowingly entered a sinful route after being saved? Have you subsequently repented and been restored?

This is not an answer to my question. Does sexual sin and repentance equate to falling away or falling from grace where Christ will be of no benefit - does Corinthians explain away or override Hebrews and Galatians?

 

[GWH]

Hi brother,

I have been following this thread and only contributed a couple of times.
Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't get most of your abbreviations.
One being above "as I continue to LGW my main ministry"

I don't know that that means.

Thanks

Bill

Learn/ing God's Word, as in Teaching of Jesus #3:

TOJ #3: Learn God’s Word (LGW). [MT 4:4//LK 4:4] This is the first of three truths Jesus tried to teach the devil during a period of testing in the desert (MK 1:12-13). Satan first tempted Jesus to perform a miracle; just like he tempts us to want to walk by proof rather than by Faith (MT 24:24). However, Jesus indicated that God’s Word is the fuel, food {JN 6:26-27} and medicine for souls, so if we do not LGW, then we will run out of gas, fail to grow and be spiritually sick. Or, in terms of another passage, our house (life) will be destroyed. {MT 7:24-27//LK 6:47-49}

This TOJ prompts the question: what is God’s Word? The NT affirms most of the books in the OT, and most Christians affirm the books in the NT. The next TOJ indicates that “truth” is God’s Word. Some people identify every word in the Bible with truth, but this view ignores the need for an infallible interpretation in order to establish an inerrant canon and to explain discrepancies, such as one instruction to pray for God’s will to be done (TOJ #34) and another to ask for anything (TOJ #51). A perfect revelation might also be expected to have included teachings to head off future controversies (such as “Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb”) or to answer crucial issues like “God does not prove His will to humanity because doing so would abrogate volition.” (Cf. the next TOJ.)

 

[BillG]

Learn/ing God's Word, as in Teaching of Jesus #3:

TOJ #3: Learn God’s Word (LGW). [MT 4:4//LK 4:4] This is the first of three truths Jesus tried to teach the devil during a period of testing in the desert (MK 1:12-13). Satan first tempted Jesus to perform a miracle; just like he tempts us to want to walk by proof rather than by Faith (MT 24:24). However, Jesus indicated that God’s Word is the fuel, food {JN 6:26-27} and medicine for souls, so if we do not LGW, then we will run out of gas, fail to grow and be spiritually sick. Or, in terms of another passage, our house (life) will be destroyed. {MT 7:24-27//LK 6:47-49}

This TOJ prompts the question: what is God’s Word? The NT affirms most of the books in the OT, and most Christians affirm the books in the NT. The next TOJ indicates that “truth” is God’s Word. Some people identify every word in the Bible with truth, but this view ignores the need for an infallible interpretation in order to establish an inerrant canon and to explain discrepancies, such as one instruction to pray for God’s will to be done (TOJ #34) and another to ask for anything (TOJ #51). A perfect revelation might also be expected to have included teachings to head off future controversies (such as “Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb”) or to answer crucial issues like “God does not prove His will to humanity because doing so would abrogate volition.” (Cf. the next TOJ.)

What on earth are you on about?

It is a load of crap above.
Wow oh wow.

TOJ????

I really hope people seeking Jesus do not see the above.

Shame indeed

You sound like you are on drugs.

 

[Kroogz]

I found this metaphor helpful as well…

You may be familiar with fractals and the Mandelbrot set. It deals with numbers on the simple AND the complex plane. Together they form a mathematical pattern of infinite depth:

In order to arrive at these patterns, math in all planes is required, most of which goes over my head. Regardless, I can revel in the infinite depth of God and enjoy a glimpse into His nature.

This is why The Lord Jesus Christ is called the Truth. He is infinite and COMPLETE. He sees every minute detail from beginning to end.

We are finite and incomplete and will never, in and of ourselves, come to the truth.......But we can BELIEVE He is the Truth.

This is why believing in the lord Jesus Christ for our salvation(eternal life) is The Way to salvation. He is the Truth.

 

[BillG]

Learn/ing God's Word, as in Teaching of Jesus #3:

TOJ #3: Learn God’s Word (LGW). [MT 4:4//LK 4:4] This is the first of three truths Jesus tried to teach the devil during a period of testing in the desert (MK 1:12-13). Satan first tempted Jesus to perform a miracle; just like he tempts us to want to walk by proof rather than by Faith (MT 24:24). However, Jesus indicated that God’s Word is the fuel, food {JN 6:26-27} and medicine for souls, so if we do not LGW, then we will run out of gas, fail to grow and be spiritually sick. Or, in terms of another passage, our house (life) will be destroyed. {MT 7:24-27//LK 6:47-49}

This TOJ prompts the question: what is God’s Word? The NT affirms most of the books in the OT, and most Christians affirm the books in the NT. The next TOJ indicates that “truth” is God’s Word. Some people identify every word in the Bible with truth, but this view ignores the need for an infallible interpretation in order to establish an inerrant canon and to explain discrepancies, such as one instruction to pray for God’s will to be done (TOJ #34) and another to ask for anything (TOJ #51). A perfect revelation might also be expected to have included teachings to head off future controversies (such as “Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb”) or to answer crucial issues like “God does not prove His will to humanity because doing so would abrogate volition.” (Cf. the next TOJ.)

My mum when to a church like yours and never went back.

Why?

Because of the crap you spout above.

She just wanted to be accepted and loved.

People like you are responsible for this.

Jesus made the Gospel simple. You not.

I'm not going to say it because I meant get banned on here.

 

[GWH]

What on earth are you on about?

It is a load of crap above.
Wow oh wow.

TOJ????

I really hope people seeking Jesus do not see the above.

Shame indeed

You sound like you are on drugs.

Could you be specific so I can know how to respond?

 

[BillG]

Learn/ing God's Word, as in Teaching of Jesus #3:

TOJ #3: Learn God’s Word (LGW). [MT 4:4//LK 4:4] This is the first of three truths Jesus tried to teach the devil during a period of testing in the desert (MK 1:12-13). Satan first tempted Jesus to perform a miracle; just like he tempts us to want to walk by proof rather than by Faith (MT 24:24). However, Jesus indicated that God’s Word is the fuel, food {JN 6:26-27} and medicine for souls, so if we do not LGW, then we will run out of gas, fail to grow and be spiritually sick. Or, in terms of another passage, our house (life) will be destroyed. {MT 7:24-27//LK 6:47-49}

This TOJ prompts the question: what is God’s Word? The NT affirms most of the books in the OT, and most Christians affirm the books in the NT. The next TOJ indicates that “truth” is God’s Word. Some people identify every word in the Bible with truth, but this view ignores the need for an infallible interpretation in order to establish an inerrant canon and to explain discrepancies, such as one instruction to pray for God’s will to be done (TOJ #34) and another to ask for anything (TOJ #51). A perfect revelation might also be expected to have included teachings to head off future controversies (such as “Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb”) or to answer crucial issues like “God does not prove His will to humanity because doing so would abrogate volition.” (Cf. the next TOJ.)

What on earth does (Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb) have to do my request to you.

 

[BillG]

Could you be specific so I can know how to respond?

I was in my first response to you.

Go back, read your response and reflect on how would people on the street who we reach out to, who come to church would react to your first response to me.

The people on the street with addiction, those not on the street with addiction.
People who cannot read, those who don't understand big words.

You do not preach Jesus and his gospel.

 

[Kroogz]

You do not preach Jesus and his gospel.

It truly saddens me, that is what I gather also.

Many are way back in the garden sewing fig leaves together with their own hands. Those coverings never worked and never will.

 

[BillG]

It truly saddens me, that is what I gather also.

Many are way back in the garden sewing fig leaves together with their own hands. Those coverings never worked and never will.

It's so sad brother.

God clothed Adam and Eve.
He knew that they messed up, yet he sought them out.
He clothed their nakedness.
For me the first act of grace.

We need to do the same.
Extend/walk/show the grace of God to others.

If do not then we either don't have grace or are Pharisees.

 

[GWH]

I was in my first response to you.

Go back, read your response and reflect on how would people on the street who we reach out to, who come to church would react to your first response to me.

The people on the street with addiction, those not on the street with addiction.
People who cannot read, those who don't understand big words.

You do not preach Jesus and his gospel.

Okay, you said "Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't get most of your abbreviations.
One being above "as I continue to LGW my main ministry" I don't know that that means."

To which I replied that it means learn God's Word as Jesus taught in MT 4:4.
Then I commented about what GW includes and does not include,
such as specific teaching regarding abortion.

So, what set you off?

 

[BillG]

Okay, you said "Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't get most of your abbreviations.
One being above "as I continue to LGW my main ministry" I don't know that that means."

To which I replied that it means learn God's Word as Jesus taught in MT 4:4.
Then I commented about what GW includes and does not include,
such as specific teaching regarding abortion.

So, what set you off?

Thanks for responding.

All I asked for was that I do not get a lot of the abbreviations you say.

Ie LGW, you responded with Learn Gods Word.
Great thank you, how many people on this thread would know this?
Both Christian and non?
But then you

You say

such as “Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb”) or to answer crucial issues like “God does not prove His will to humanity because doing so would abrogate volition.” (Cf. the next TOJ.)

What is TOJ, what does that mean?
All I was askinfg for is to make it simple for simple people like me and others.

If someone on here who is not a believer but searching would you say LGW and then spout "Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb, side not Bible verse please)

Lets assume someone who came to your or your church seeking Jesus and admitted she had an abortion, what you say?

How could/would you show and explain Grace, how would that compare with what Jesus would say?

 

[GWH]

Thanks for responding.

All I asked for was that I do not get a lot of the abbreviations you say.

Ie LGW, you responded with Learn Gods Word.
Great thank you, how many people on this thread would know this?
Both Christian and non?
But then you

You say

such as “Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb”) or to answer crucial issues like “God does not prove His will to humanity because doing so would abrogate volition.” (Cf. the next TOJ.)

What is TOJ, what does that mean?
All I was askinfg for is to make it simple for simple people like me and others.

If someone on here who is not a believer but searching would you say LGW and then spout "Thou shalt not murder babies in the womb, side not Bible verse please)

Lets assume someone who came to your or your church seeking Jesus and admitted she had an abortion, what you say?

How could/would you show and explain Grace, how would that compare with what Jesus would say?

And thanks for asking. I indicated in #1,285 that TOJ means Teachings of Jesus, and TOP means Teachings of Paul. I sponsor threads on each of these topics, which I hope will be helpful. I find these abbreviations very useful and appropriate on CC. GRFS is another one I use several times a day, meaning "God's requirement for salvation" or the Christian creed, which I explain in the Kerygma thread. One more is MFW meaning "moral free will" or volition, the God-given and God-like ability that makes normal adults accountable for sin and pricks their consciences.

No, I would not speak the same way to an unbeliever. To someone who had an abortion I would share where Jesus said "Go and sin no more" and encourage the use of birth control pills, which worked for my wife until we were ready to have children after seven years of marriage.

Over...

 

[Kroogz]

No, I would not speak the same way to an unbeliever. To someone who had an abortion I would share where Jesus said "Go and sin no more" and encourage the use of birth control pills, which worked for my wife until we were ready to have children after seven years of marriage.

Over...

Unacceptable. An unbeliever needs THE GOSPEL. Not some self righteous prig telling them how to live. No wonder people nowadays RUN from believers.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all sin. You are a sinner in need of salvation. His Life and death and resurrection was for YOU! Believe/trust in Him for your salvation/eternal life and you WILL be saved.

John 3:16

Acts 16:31

This is the/HIS Gospel. How do you not know this by now?

 

[GWH]

Unacceptable. An unbeliever needs THE GOSPEL. Not some self righteous prig telling them how to live. No wonder people nowadays RUN from believers.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all sin. You are a sinner in need of salvation. His Life and death and resurrection was for YOU! Believe/trust in Him for your salvation/eternal life and you WILL be saved.

John 3:16

Acts 16:31

This is the/HIS Gospel. How do you not know this by now?

I agree regarding the unbeliever; do you agree regarding the Christian woman who had an abortion?

 

[Kroogz]

I agree regarding the unbeliever; do you agree regarding the Christian woman who had an abortion?

Well the premise was an unbeliever who came to you or your church who had an abortion.

The abortion issue is up to God. God is in control of all babies, and ALL babies will be in heaven.( He may have saved them from terrible trouble and pain in this life.)

Luke 15~~ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons( All babies/mentally challenged) who do not need to repent.

The believer~~~1 John 1:9. There is no guilt, condemnation, worry or fear in Christ. Name it and site to God and be filled and walk in the Spirit.

 

[GWH]

Well the premise was an unbeliever who came to you or your church who had an abortion.

The abortion issue is up to God. God is in control of all babies, and ALL babies will be in heaven.( He may have saved them from terrible trouble and pain in this life.)

Luke 15~~ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons( All babies/mentally challenged) who do not need to repent.

The believer~~~1 John 1:9. There is no guilt, condemnation, worry or fear in Christ. Name it and site to God and be filled and walk in the Spirit.

Oh, I replied with two different folks as the premise.

So, you have no problem with abortion at any stage of fetal development?

When do you think human life begins in the sense of having the right to life so that terminating it is murder?