The lie that we are sinless if we are saved

[SophieT]

1 John 1:8 does not refer to the idea that we cannot walk in freedom and victory over sin for an extended time but is rather referring to the fact of indwelling sin (see Romans 7:18).

We can practically walk free from committing sins for even the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

This does not change the fact that we are sinful in the nature of our flesh.

It just means that we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)); and therefore we can walk in consistent freedom and victory over the flesh (so that we obey and do what the Spirit wants rather than doing what the sinful nature wants us to do).

well I agree partly and thank you for getting back to me

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. I John 1 :8

this scripture refers to the fact we commit sin and if we do not think so, the truth is not in us...I realize you are not quite saying that, but that verse is very specific and there is no getting around it

well, even if we could walk practically free and sinless, if we commit just one sin, and we have not accepted Christ, that one sin would keep us separated from God forever. there is no indication in scripture I can find, that indicates we can walk sinless for the rest of our earthly lives

we are not obligated to sin though, as you say, but then I would refer back to I John 1: 8

however, sin no longer condemns us and we are the righteousness of God in Christ

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
II Corinthians 5:21

all of that to say, it is the practice of sin or continuing in sin, that indicates a problem

 

[SophieT]

lol no let’s stay with what you said . You said Hebrews was only addressed to Hebrews and that’s out of context so we can go into” whether I’ve sinned “ flyer you answer what we’re talking about

can you explain how Hebrews are earned if they keep willfully sinning by have no atonement left but that’s only for Hebrew Christians ?

once we get to the truth of this then if you wish to discuss me and my sins , I suppose I’ll freely do that

but you said some thing and I responded with a question can you answer that is that your position that Hebrews are taught differently in Christ ?

that is not what he said

he pointed out that you took a verse that was part of portion of scripture speaking about HABITUAL sin

again, this is you taking scripture out of context and trying to put a meaning on it that does not hold up

you really seem to miss understanding of salvation

I begin to perceive the problem as you not understanding all that Christ has done for us

I doubt anyone wants to actually discuss you and your sins

 

[SophieT]

Peter did not willfully sin in the account of Galatians chapter 2.

As a matter of fact, a case can be made that he was being obedient to the principles that Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 8 and Romans 14.

But because his behaviour, from the perspective of the gospel as it pertains to the Gentiles, placed that gospel in compromise, it had to be addressed.

apparently Peter has company....

how hard does a person have to work to completely destroy the meaning of something and put his own spin on it in order to make it match up with other errors?

 

[Absolutely]

apparently Peter has company....

how hard does a person have to work to completely destroy the meaning of something and put his own spin on it in order to make it match up with other errors?

My coffee buddy once said
"if one tortures the scriptures vigorously enough he can make them say most anything he wants"
Pretty sure we see this every day somewhere on the board.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are the one who quoted from Hebrews to inform Christians that if they "wilfully sinned" they would come under God's judgment and wrath. So can you honestly say that you have never ever "wilfully sinned"? And if you have wilfully sinned and God has not unleashed His wrath against you, then it means that you tried to take a passage out of context to promote a false doctrine.

So let's go back to Hebrews 10:26,27: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. If this passage were meant to be of general application, then every Christian would be facing the wrath of God -- "judgment and fiery indignation" -- as an "adversary" of God.

Let's take the example of Peter when he chose to separate himself from Gentile Christians and had to be rebuked by Paul. Did he sin wilfully by choosing to do what was wrong? Absolutely. Did he come under God's judgment immediately? Absolutely not. No doubt he accepted Paul's rebuke gracefully and made sure that he would not repeat that behavior. So now you have to do the same and admit that you took a passage out of context and created confusion in the minds of others.

You are the one who quoted from Hebrews to inform Christians that if they "wilfully sinned" they would come under God's judgment and wrath.”


Exactly because of people don’t ever accept that and believe it’s not true they will never repent I also quoted from Ephesians , Galatians , Romans the exact same things.

YOU said we should disregard Hebrews because it’s written to the Hebrews.

so are you saying Hebrews are warned. It to keep sinning or they will fall under greater jidgement than the law ? But that’s doesn’t apply to gentile Christians ? That seems to be exactly what you were saying .

so rather than avoiding what you said can you answer the simple question ?

as far as me and my life that doesn’t change what scripture says.

this is true and shouldn’t be explained away because like I’m telling you it’s not meant to condemn it’s meant to lead you to repentance so you understand the truth “ I can’t keep sinning willfully and pretend I’m saved “

it’s sort of what happens anytime people see scripture they don’t agree with “ well tha ya just for the Jews doesn’t apply to me “ my point is it applies to me , you and everyone else.

repentance is required isnt point as long as we tell ourselves “ I’m already saved doesn’t matter if I keep sinning or not I’m saved “ that’s contrary to what’s in scripture. And then we turn to “ well see you sinless you sinless perfectionist “ lol

I believe what it says do you ? And because I believe it I understand I have to repent and not keep sinning willfully and knowingly and nope I don’t sin willfully and knowingly ever if I do something wrong and then realize I have I repent and confess what I’ve done and understand this part

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If I pretend sin is irrelevant I’ll never get to that part and if I start saying “ confessing is a work “ I’m just avoiding the truth .

it’s like some of you think if one scripture is true The other can’t possibly be true it’s meant to all go together to lead believers to understand “ I can’t keep sinning it does matter if I do it will
Lead to judgement if I don’t repent “

when we don’t want to stop sinning we reject it and say “this other scripture says grace so that’s not true “ it’s because we want to keep living formoir self do we pretend sin doesn’t matter

if we acknowledge the truth it will bring us to actually repent and stop pretending sin doesn’t apply to us anymore. They will never lead anyone to repent but the truth will unless we get angry herring it lol and start trying to call someone a sinless perfectionist who happens to it’s a bunch of clear scripture we didn’t want to end else to see

Does this make you think you are lost ? Or does it make you think “ maybe I better actually change my ways ?”

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Does that make you think our actions whether sinful or upright don’t matter to salvstion ?? Or does it make you think “ I better repent and start living the things I believe because I’m going to be judged by my deeds like everyone else is ?”

of course when we’re convinced “ what I do doesn’t effect salvstion “ we can’t really accept scripture that’s meant to change our Will against sin warning us of the truth about judgement

does that at all make you think I should repent and actually take account of my own actions ? Or does it make you want to argue out how I live my life ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

you throw scripture around like confetti

I asked a simple question and you refuse to answer.

what you post is word salad with scripture dressing on top

your entire aim in the above rhetoric, is to create illusion that I posted nonsense and you are correcting it



let's get to it then

yeah that darn scriptire has no place in a discussion about the Bible or truth probably we should just all give our opinions and shun what scripture says lol and create distractions and arguments that will surely lead to salvation

I believe those scriptures and all of them some folks don’t I guess and get offended when you bring them up . This is true

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;

even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can keep serving satans will ( sin ) or can repent and start living for Jesus it’s really up to the person but yes any discussion with me is going to have a lot of scripture to back up what I say if that’s offensive to you we’ll go back to not speaking lol I’m good with it either way

you should probably start acknolwedgong some of those scriptures that offend you so much if you accept them rather than let them boil your blood hearing them you’ll be led out of satans snare serving his will ( I don’t know maybe you hav no sin in your life but given your words I’d say you have some repentance to find )

Satan gets angry when Gods word shows up meaning the scriptire , he gets mad because it means to us when people acknowledge it

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it frees his captives who serve his Will ( sin ) and he doesn’t like that part he wants us to reject scripture and get mad at it and rant about what we think and then of course trim the one who accepts the scripture into some form of enemy ect ect

if your argument is we should reject scripture everything you’ve said makes sense but I believe we’re supposed to accept and believe scripture so God can change our Will and actions


“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a good way to know your Will is when someone talks bout repenting and not being allowed to keep sinning of that upsets you it’s because your Will needs to change yet and then your actions will follow suit and you’ll find that the freedom the gospel talks about from serving sin is actually true

 

[SophieT]

yeah that darn scriptire has no place in a discussion about the Bible or truth probably we should just all give our opinions and shun what scripture says lol and create distractions and arguments that will surely lead to salvation

I believe those scriptures and all of them some folks don’t I guess and get offended when you bring them up . This is true

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;

even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can keep serving satans will ( sin ) or can repent and start living for Jesus it’s really up to the person but yes any discussion with me is going to have a lot of scripture to back up what I say if that’s offensive to you we’ll go back to not speaking lol I’m good with it either way

you should probably start acknolwedgong some of those scriptures that offend you so much if you accept them rather than let them boil your blood hearing them you’ll be led out of satans snare serving his will ( I don’t know maybe you hav no sin in your life but given your words I’d say you have some repentance to find )

Satan gets angry when Gods word shows up meaning the scriptire , he gets mad because it means to us when people acknowledge it

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it frees his captives who serve his Will ( sin ) and he doesn’t like that part he wants us to reject scripture and get mad at it and rant about what we think and then of course trim the one who accepts the scripture into some form of enemy ect ect

if your argument is we should reject scripture everything you’ve said makes sense but I believe we’re supposed to accept and believe scripture so God can change our Will and actions


“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a good way to know your Will is when someone talks bout repenting and not being allowed to keep sinning of that upsets you it’s because your Will needs to change yet and then your actions will follow suit and you’ll find that the freedom the gospel talks about from serving sin is actually true

this belongs in a septic tank. it has no relation to anything I have said and bears a closer resemblance to the response from someone who thought he was sinless. however, the proximity to that person is the other 'side of the coin' so to speak because between the 2 of you, you have managed to bare witness against your own idiosyncrasies, therefore managing to illustrate this thread from either side with the extremes of your manipulations borne out by your anger against people, and myself included, who prefer not to even engage with such manifestations.
however we do so in an effort to present the actual gospel, knowing you will take opportunity to again create a blatantly false impression of what the other person truthfully witnessed of scripture, with vigorous denial of what scripture plainly states as it seems you do not believe that Jesus forgave anyone who does not thank you for your barrage of judgement

you are unrelentingly ignorant of scripture and as you cannot be truthful to respond to what I actually wrote, but find opportunity to create untruths and attribute them to me, I conclude that you are self taught or have somehow enjoined yourself to some dark underside of Christianity that engages in unwarranted judgement upon the brethren while imagining themselves beloved and chosen by God to condemn all who refuse to engage in useless navel gazing

but I digress

unless you have some passion besides corrupted judgement and self aggrandizement and can present such with clarity and persuasion that is biblical, I find the usefulness of this thread, with regards to opposition to the lie of sinless perfectionism, to have run its course

there is no desire on my part to follow you down your personal rabbit hole

 

[justbyfaith]

apparently Peter has company....

how hard does a person have to work to completely destroy the meaning of something and put his own spin on it in order to make it match up with other errors?

My coffee buddy once said
"if one tortures the scriptures vigorously enough he can make them say most anything he wants"
Pretty sure we see this every day somewhere on the board.

Wow...

just...

wow.

 

[justbyfaith]

well I agree partly and thank you for getting back to me

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. I John 1 :8

this scripture refers to the fact we commit sin and if we do not think so, the truth is not in us...I realize you are not quite saying that, but that verse is very specific and there is no getting around it

well, even if we could walk practically free and sinless, if we commit just one sin, and we have not accepted Christ, that one sin would keep us separated from God forever. there is no indication in scripture I can find, that indicates we can walk sinless for the rest of our earthly lives

we are not obligated to sin though, as you say, but then I would refer back to I John 1: 8

however, sin no longer condemns us and we are the righteousness of God in Christ

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
II Corinthians 5:21

all of that to say, it is the practice of sin or continuing in sin, that indicates a problem

1 John 1:8 is referring to indwelling sin (Romans 7:18) rather than practical sinning...

Otherwise it is in direct contradiction to its immediate context in 1 John 3:5-9.

 

[Gardenias]

Wow...

just...

wow.

I'm reading you again. Forgive my lack of longsuffering, and understanding.
I believe you are given a bad rap at times by all here,yet on you go.
Peace.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us...

I think it is prety clear what the word says. John included himself in that verse.

it all stems from Pride. Its interesting how they have to shame others of loving their sin because they admit they do sin. and have a lack of faith in God. The issue is they deny their own sin. and then have to look at others to make themselves feel good. hence where the judgment comes from. Because I believe deep inside they know they still sin

 

[SophieT]

1 John 1:8 is referring to indwelling sin (Romans 7:18) rather than practical sinning...

Otherwise it is in direct contradiction to its immediate context in 1 John 3:5-9.

there is no such a thing as indwelling sin vs practical sinning

you made that up

anyway, I'm leaving this thread

 

[SophieT]

if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us...

I think it is prety clear what the word says. John included himself in that verse.

it all stems from Pride. Its interesting how they have to shame others of loving their sin because they admit they do sin. and have a lack of faith in God. The issue is they deny their own sin. and then have to look at others to make themselves feel good. hence where the judgment comes from. Because I believe deep inside they know they still sin

right

it is surprising how many groups think they can or already are living in "sinless perfectionism"

seems that if the devil cannot keep you from opening your Bible and reading and studying it, the next trick is to confuse and distort what you are reading

anyway, the only One who actually is and was sinless, is Jesus

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

right

it is surprising how many groups think they can or already are living in "sinless perfectionism"

seems that if the devil cannot keep you from opening your Bible and reading and studying it, the next trick is to confuse and distort what you are reading

anyway, the only One who actually is and was sinless, is Jesus

As Jesus said, Why do you call me good, no one is good but God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

this belongs in a septic tank. it has no relation to anything I have said and bears a closer resemblance to the response from someone who thought he was sinless. however, the proximity to that person is the other 'side of the coin' so to speak because between the 2 of you, you have managed to bare witness against your own idiosyncrasies, therefore managing to illustrate this thread from either side with the extremes of your manipulations borne out by your anger against people, and myself included, who prefer not to even engage with such manifestations.
however we do so in an effort to present the actual gospel, knowing you will take opportunity to again create a blatantly false impression of what the other person truthfully witnessed of scripture, with vigorous denial of what scripture plainly states as it seems you do not believe that Jesus forgave anyone who does not thank you for your barrage of judgement

you are unrelentingly ignorant of scripture and as you cannot be truthful to respond to what I actually wrote, but find opportunity to create untruths and attribute them to me, I conclude that you are self taught or have somehow enjoined yourself to some dark underside of Christianity that engages in unwarranted judgement upon the brethren while imagining themselves beloved and chosen by God to condemn all who refuse to engage in useless navel gazing

but I digress

unless you have some passion besides corrupted judgement and self aggrandizement and can present such with clarity and persuasion that is biblical, I find the usefulness of this thread, with regards to opposition to the lie of sinless perfectionism, to have run its course

there is no desire on my part to follow you down your personal rabbit hole

sounds good

 

[Pilgrimshope]

if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us...

I think it is prety clear what the word says. John included himself in that verse.

it all stems from Pride. Its interesting how they have to shame others of loving their sin because they admit they do sin. and have a lack of faith in God. The issue is they deny their own sin. and then have to look at others to make themselves feel good. hence where the judgment comes from. Because I believe deep inside they know they still sin

This isn’t clear though ? From the same letter probably

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s just as clear isn’t it sort of my point the scriptures your quoting there are about repentance and confessing your sins so Christ can wash them away

the scriptures I quoted there from later in the same letter is about maturing in Christ it’s all true not just what we think or want to hear

in fact accepting the thkngs we don’t want to hear is what accomplishes repentance and a change of our mind and heart regarding sin

 

[Gardenias]

sounds good

Why not just ignore you?
. A personal punching bag?
Because we agree much,I'm either being ignored or overlooked.
Petty,childish,spoilt,telling others to grow up.......lol.
Shame shame

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Why not just ignore you?
. A personal punching bag?
Because we agree much,km either being ignored or overlooked.
Petty,childish,spoilt,telling others to grow up.......lol.
Shame shame

if you notice it’s always an argument when certain people get involved no matter who or what the subject

more of a drain of energy 🙂

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This isn’t clear though ? From the same letter probably

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s just as clear isn’t it sort of my point the scriptures your quoting there are about repentance and confessing your sins so Christ can wash them away

the scriptures I quoted there from later in the same letter is about maturing in Christ it’s all true not just what we think or want to hear

in fact accepting the thkngs we don’t want to hear is what accomplishes repentance and a change of our mind and heart regarding sin

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves

Those are the words of John, If you can not understand he inc;uded himself in that statement, and how he and scripture did not also say when we do sin we have an advocate.. well. than I do not know what to say.

The passages you show? Read them in the greek. They are not saying we do not sin ever again, It says we do not continually habiltually live in sin.

if you think you are sinless. Then I feel sorry for ya bro..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves

Those are the words of John, If you can not understand he inc;uded himself in that statement, and how he and scripture did not also say when we do sin we have an advocate.. well. than I do not know what to say.

The passages you show? Read them in the greek. They are not saying we do not sin ever again, It says we do not continually habiltually live in sin.

if you think you are sinless. Then I feel sorry for ya bro..

so johns other words aren’t his words ? See how quickly you were offended by this

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s from the exact same letter you quoted from and your point is “ that’s johns word of you can’t accept it yadda yadda yadda I feel sorry for you

I would t feel sorry for me friend I’m able to accept the rest of it also I don’t get offended by this which is about confessing and repenting of our sin

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s about recognizing and repenting of sin when we have committed it but it’s not like John other a verse d said ignore the rest of what I’m saying

I don’t feel sorry for you I hope eventually your able to accept the part that’s calling you out of sin though