The lie that we are sinless if we are saved

[Pilgrimshope]

I asked why you responded to Nehemiah's post

he posted about salvation

again, what did you think of his post?

to me, your response does not seem related to what he posted so I am wondering why you responded with scripture that does not reflect on his post

ps...I asked for people's thoughts on the topic of the op...in other words, address the topic please

and I have no clue what you mean by 'in think scripture speaks for itself'

salvation is being saved FROM sin...not to dwell on it, but to dwell on the riches of God's grace and all that salvation is actually about

sure, there is mention of sin in the NT...but dwelling on sin actually takes the focus off the answer...Jesus

yeah what the New Testament says is we can’t keep sinning and be saved if we keep sinning knowingly that’s what those scriptures actually say is my ooont .

your ideas , my ideas , Nehemiah’s ideas don’t matter but what it says matters and is meant not to reject but to accept

So yeah I think it relates directly to salvation and ongoing willful sin. I quoted it because I read his post and think we should consider what he said and add what the scripture says to what he said it doesn’t disqualify what he said and what he said doesn’t erase the scripture

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ( is that saying they are saved ?)


He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬ ‭

to keep sinning knowingly so and pretending we aren’t sinning or sin doesn’t matter leads to where it says not to salvation .

again look at this one

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not saying “ once you receive the Holy Ghost your saved no matter what is it ? But it’s meant to move us forward away from sin keep us upright

it doesn’t really matter if one person thinks “ once I say I believe I’m already saved no matter what “ and another personal says “ if you sin once after you believe your doomed “ neither is the right answer

the right answer is when you can agree with the scripture no matter what it has to say. It’s design is to give us comfort up front me press us into repentance and righteousness as we walk in the spirit of Christ.

like the law had its own conditions the gospel has its conditions also and it’s not what we think but what Christ said

it’s all true friend not just what sounds easy and conditionless it’s all true and relevant to salvation

but that’s what I think , again , I’m no authority just another Christian here discussing the Bible

It’s not okay for a Christian to ignore thier own sins that’s willful sin . And ours is in danger of being lost like it says there if we accept that it’s going to produce repentance in our life if we reject it it’s going to lead to arguing and pretending some scripture applies and the rest doesn’t

This is true absolutely

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree completely and this warning to those same folks also is completely true d should be accepted

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i agree with that also both points are true would you agree with all scripture in the New Testament being true and applicable to Christian believers ? Or only what sounds effortless ?

the idea is what’s in between that reconciles them ? Grave is a teacher that leads to repentance and right living that’s how we’re saved by grace through faith

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we should accept scriptire and. NOt reject it based on a different place on the same letters to the same church

 

[Magenta]

SALVATION is getting on The Cross ...right? That is where JESUS took on our Forsakenness. So how do you think you get on that Cross? You Uphold His Image after being Reborn to IT!!! That is the Key ...that is THE WAY.

Jesus is no longer on the cross. You have very strange ideas.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

we are not led out of our sins

we are totally and absolutely forgiven of our sins

the Holy Spirit enables us to live for Christ...we are empowered by Him to obey

constantly reflecting on sin just stirs it up

if people see themselves as 'just a sinner', they will act that way

however, the Bible says we are a new creature in Christ. old things are passed away and ALL things have become new.

we do not need baptism for salvation...we need the blood of Christ washing away our sins. we do not need to constantly think of ourselves in the negative....this is not what scripture teaches

“we are not led out of our sins”

yeah not if we don’t follow him we aren’t


“we are totally and absolutely forgiven of our sins”

yes agreed if we repent and confess our sins he’s already said he will forgive us and wash us from its stains

“constantly reflecting on sin just stirs it up”

yeah I don’t focus on sin I don’t ignore it and pretend it doesn’t matter either. Gotta repent of sin not focus on it We focus on the gospel and what Jesus had to say


“if people see themselves as 'just a sinner', they will act that way”

yeah if they see themselves a sinner and believe the word of God like what says “ you can’t keep sinning “ they will repent if they don’t ignore it but accept it and believe then they won’t be sinning 🙂 they will repent rather than willfully continue sinning

if we convince them sin isn’t a thing anymore and doesn’t matter they’ll live thiernown desires and think they are saved


“the Holy Spirit enables us to live for Christ...we are empowered by Him to obey”

yes agreed that’s why Christians don’t keep sinning they receive the spirit and start obeying the gospel rather than the flesh

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jhn 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Jhn 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

brother do you know what he’s talking about there ?

“And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭21:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s saying that if we have sinned , we can turn to the cross and Jesus death upon it for our sins and be forgiven so we don’t die . God provided a propitiation like he did for them when he sent the firey serpents upon them to destroy them

They entreated Moses and he asked God to save them God told him this


“Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.

And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭21:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the whole Old Testament is like that it’s always a pre figure of Christ like that serpent on the pole was a figure of Christ in the cross and provides atonement for sin and protects our life by Gods provision

all they had to do was believe what was said about the brazen serpent so when they for bit they just had to look up at it and they would live

Jesus is using the ot patterns to teach them about propitiation for sins by himself upon the cross

 

[Nehemiah6]

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1. This passage should not be taken out of context. It is addressed to Hebrew Christians who were attempting to revert back to Torah Observance and were forgetting exactly what Christ accomplished in His redemptive work: Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, for he is faithful that promised (v 23)

2. As can be seen in this chapter this was a warning to Hebrew Christians to not wilfully return to the Old Covenant and deny Christ because they were under persecution and afflictions: But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. (vv 32,33)

3. The last verse shows us that this was a warning only: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. This itself speaks of faith in Christ alone vs faith in the Old Covenant.

4. There is not a single Christian who may not have sinned wilfully at one time or another. If this passage were to be of general application, then all Christians would come under God's judgment and wrath as adversaries of God (v 27). But that is not how God does with His sinning children. Hebrews 12 speaks of the chastisement of believers (sons) who sin wilfully.

5. If this passage is used by people who claim to be sinless, then they are simply deluding themselves. And this thread is about the claim of sinless perfection.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1. This passage should not be taken out of context. It is addressed to Hebrew Christians who were attempting to revert back to Torah Observance and were forgetting exactly what Christ accomplished in His redemptive work: Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, for he is faithful that promised (v 23)

2. As can be seen in this chapter this was a warning to Hebrew Christians to not wilfully return to the Old Covenant and deny Christ because they were under persecution and afflictions: But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. (vv 32,33)

3. The last verse shows us that this was a warning only: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. This itself speaks of faith in Christ alone vs faith in the Old Covenant.

4. There is not a single Christian who may not have sinned wilfully at one time or another. If this passage were to be of general application, then all Christians would come under God's judgment and wrath as adversaries of God (v 27). But that is not how God does with His sinning children. Hebrews 12 speaks of the chastisement of believers (sons) who sin wilfully.

5. If this passage is used by people who claim to be sinless, then they are simply deluding themselves. And this thread is about the claim of sinless perfection.

This passage should not be taken out of context. It is addressed to Hebrew Christians who were attempting to revert back to Torah Observance and were forgetting exactly what Christ accomplished in His redemptive work: Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, for he is faithful that promised (v

so Hebrew Christians we’re warned not to keep sinning but Gentiles aren’t ?

how about this one also
Not worth believing ?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬

 

[JesusLives]

I am not sinless, but Jesus is. His blood/life covers mine God sees Jesus sinless life, I accept Jesus as my Savior, I am saved by the blood/life of Jesus.

 

[Nehemiah6]

so Hebrew Christians we’re warned not to keep sinning but Gentiles aren’t ?

So let's turn this around and ask "Can you honestly say that you have never ever sinned wilfully?" You took a passage out of context, and the one you have quoted speaks about habitually sinning. If a person is in the habit of doing those things, he or she may not even be saved to begin with.

 

[justbyfaith]

The term "sinless perfection" has been used to describe entire sanctification in order to produce a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8.

While the doctrine itself, does not purport that sin is eradicated from us, so that we might be without sin; but rather that sin, which indwells us as believers, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.

Thus the following verses,

1Jo 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

are not in contradiction to each other as they are taken literally; for they are also found within the immediate context of each other.

Here are a few other verses that show that entire sanctification is a viable doctrine in holy scripture.

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
.
.
.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jo 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
.
.
.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
.
.
.
Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

These verses declare that the believer can indeed walk in consistent victory over sin in absolute freedom for an extended period of time.

Thus the heresy of "the inevitability of sin" is here refuted; and for those who desire it, the teaching that we can indeed be sanctified wholly will bring us to victory.

And, this is also good news to all those who have come to the same place in their hearts and minds that Paul spoke of in Romans 7:24.

Rom 7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

For in Romans 7:14-21, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION; identifying himself as carnal in order to define carnality for his readers. He here becomes as weak in order to gain the weak (1 Corinthians 9:22).

In all reality the context bears out that in Romans 7:14-25 Paul is identifying the law of sin and death; and in Romans 8:2 he declares his victory over the law of sin and death.

If Paul were actually carnal when he wrote Romans 7:14-25, then he would not have been penning actual holy scripture. For it is written,

2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Therefore in order for Paul to have been penning holy scripture, he had to be holy at the time.

I conclude that he was indeed using a literary tactic; in which he became as weak in order to win those who are weak (1 Corinthians 9:22).

His point?

That if anyone is truly born again and yet living a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle, they will be discontented with such a lifestyle of sinning.

Therefore the doctrine of entire sanctification would indeed be good news to them.

Finally, the scriptures that I have given are divine promises; and in Romans 4:20-22 we find that righteousness is imputed to the one who believes in such divine promises that they will be accomplished in his or her life.

Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23, Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

 

[Gardenias]

Maybe its more about peoples understanding or perception of what sin is ,it may NOT be an " thou shalt not" in plain terms. Most are plain and defined.

Sin separates from God....did Jesus condemn Peter when he was denying him,as Jesus told him he would.

We see so differently than God does,and are harder on ourselves and others ,much worse than he is.

There are also things God asks individuals to refrain from that may be only for them,it's our motive or love of.

Let's think about this.

 

[SophieT]

“we are not led out of our sins”

yeah not if we don’t follow him we aren’t

we repent of our sins...you know? do a 180. which, means we renew our minds by the word which means we agree with God

this is not the wilderness. we have the Holy Spirit INDWEELING us...unless of course you prefer a pillar of smoke or fire?

“we are totally and absolutely forgiven of our sins”

yes agreed if we repent and confess our sins he’s already said he will forgive us and wash us from its stains

“constantly reflecting on sin just stirs it up”

yeah I don’t focus on sin I don’t ignore it and pretend it doesn’t matter either. Gotta repent of sin not focus on it We focus on the gospel and what Jesus had to say

how many times do you need to be actually saved? every day? this is what is wrong with so much of what some churches teache because they cannot grasp the fact that GOOD BEHAVIOR is not going to get them any more saved than what they are RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!

repentance is ONE TIME....unless of course you leave and come back on a regular basis. otherwise, we CONFESS and ask for forgiveness. you cannot even see the need to confess without siding with what scripture states. we do not become unsaved.

tell me....does the Bible say we are unsaved when we sin if we sin as a believer? there is only 1 sin that is unforgiveable...blasphemy against the Holy Spirit...attributing to the devil acts of the Holy Spirit and if a person has actually done this, they most likely will not even feel the need to confess as they have gone beyond forgiveness according to scripture

salvation is not sin focused like so many in this forum are.

yeah if they see themselves a sinner and believe the word of God like what says “ you can’t keep sinning “ they will repent if they don’t ignore it but accept it and believe then they won’t be sinning 🙂 they will repent rather than willfully continue sinning

“the Holy Spirit enables us to live for Christ...we are empowered by Him to obey”

yes agreed that’s why Christians don’t keep sinning they receive the spirit and start obeying the gospel rather than the flesh

are you saying here you believe yourself to be sinless? Christians sin. Read Paul for a better understanding of it. some Christians, in fact, are locked into certain sins and desperately need help. Ever had a sit down with those people? they do not want to be the way they are but are addicted. God delivers, but for some it can be very difficult.

so while you sit on your high chair and seem to think if they were genuine they would quit sinning, others understand it can be as much a spiritual battle to release from the physical problem as war. it often is war....with unseen adversaries. we wrestle not against flesh and blood as Paul put it

Jesus sweat as it were great drops of blood at the thought of the battle He was about to enter into and even He pleaded with His Father that if it were possible to secure salvation for us another way, He would rather take that other way

I doubt very much you simply decide you will no longer sin and have succeeded

 

[SophieT]

yeah what the New Testament says is we can’t keep sinning and be saved if we keep sinning knowingly that’s what those scriptures actually say is my ooont .

your ideas , my ideas , Nehemiah’s ideas don’t matter but what it says matters and is meant not to reject but to accept

So yeah I think it relates directly to salvation and ongoing willful sin. I quoted it because I read his post and think we should consider what he said and add what the scripture says to what he said it doesn’t disqualify what he said and what he said doesn’t erase the scripture

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ( is that saying they are saved ?)


He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬ ‭

to keep sinning knowingly so and pretending we aren’t sinning or sin doesn’t matter leads to where it says not to salvation .

again look at this one

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not saying “ once you receive the Holy Ghost your saved no matter what is it ? But it’s meant to move us forward away from sin keep us upright

it doesn’t really matter if one person thinks “ once I say I believe I’m already saved no matter what “ and another personal says “ if you sin once after you believe your doomed “ neither is the right answer

the right answer is when you can agree with the scripture no matter what it has to say. It’s design is to give us comfort up front me press us into repentance and righteousness as we walk in the spirit of Christ.

like the law had its own conditions the gospel has its conditions also and it’s not what we think but what Christ said

it’s all true friend not just what sounds easy and conditionless it’s all true and relevant to salvation

but that’s what I think , again , I’m no authority just another Christian here discussing the Bible

It’s not okay for a Christian to ignore thier own sins that’s willful sin . And ours is in danger of being lost like it says there if we accept that it’s going to produce repentance in our life if we reject it it’s going to lead to arguing and pretending some scripture applies and the rest doesn’t

This is true absolutely

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree completely and this warning to those same folks also is completely true d should be accepted

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i agree with that also both points are true would you agree with all scripture in the New Testament being true and applicable to Christian believers ? Or only what sounds effortless ?

the idea is what’s in between that reconciles them ? Grave is a teacher that leads to repentance and right living that’s how we’re saved by grace through faith

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we should accept scriptire and. NOt reject it based on a different place on the same letters to the same church

I asked you one simple small question

this is the 2nd time you have deflected and blown smoke

I have my answer

 

[SophieT]

So let's turn this around and ask "Can you honestly say that you have never ever sinned wilfully?" You took a passage out of context, and the one you have quoted speaks about habitually sinning. If a person is in the habit of doing those things, he or she may not even be saved to begin with.

some folks arrive at their interpretations by doing mashups

that is the only way I can figure they arrive at the destination they do

I guess you know that though

 

[SophieT]

The term "sinless perfection" has been used to describe entire sanctification in order to produce a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8.

While the doctrine itself, does not purport that sin is eradicated from us, so that we might be without sin; but rather that sin, which indwells us as believers, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.

would you kindly render that in a manner the rest of us can understand?

thank you

 

[Aidan1]

AKA Sinless Perfectionism

Seems pretty straight forward

1 John 1:7-10 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.”

further, those who believe a person can achieve a sinless state, also believe that you loose your salvation if you should sin (although if you are in a perfect state how would that happen )

so there are two things to deal with when looking at this sinless state some believe possible

the idea of sinlessness itself and the question regarding a person loosing salvation if they sin

another term for this concept of sinlessness is "Holiness Theology'

thoughts?

Well, with this theologie the heaven would be very empty.

 

[SophieT]

Maybe its more about peoples understanding or perception of what sin is ,it may NOT be an " thou shalt not" in plain terms. Most are plain and defined.

Sin separates from God....did Jesus condemn Peter when he was denying him,as Jesus told him he would.

We see so differently than God does,and are harder on ourselves and others ,much worse than he is.

There are also things God asks individuals to refrain from that may be only for them,it's our motive or love of.

Let's think about this.

the actual very short and understandable definition of sin is MISSING THE MARK

it is not a mystery and we can agree with God and easily clear up any mystery concerning misunderstanding

any time a person misses the mark (God's perfection) they sin

which means, we are only sinless IN Christ, He is our righteousness and the only reason God allows us to come into His presence

you could never be as hard on yourself as God is. He would destroy you without Christ.

I don't have to think about it all. sin separates us from God. we accept Christ, our spirits are once again able to commune with our Father. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. no mystery at all. flesh and blood died for it's creation as both God and man. therefore, He is able to understand us and identify with all our temptations and struggles

we should, by now with some maturity under the belt, be being able to see as God sees

 

[SophieT]

I asked you one simple small question

this is the 2nd time you have deflected and blown smoke

I have my answer

actually, it was the 3rd

 

[OneOfHis]

“we are not led out of our sins”

yeah not if we don’t follow him we aren’t


“we are totally and absolutely forgiven of our sins”

yes agreed if we repent and confess our sins he’s already said he will forgive us and wash us from its stains

“constantly reflecting on sin just stirs it up”

yeah I don’t focus on sin I don’t ignore it and pretend it doesn’t matter either. Gotta repent of sin not focus on it We focus on the gospel and what Jesus had to say


“if people see themselves as 'just a sinner', they will act that way”

yeah if they see themselves a sinner and believe the word of God like what says “ you can’t keep sinning “ they will repent if they don’t ignore it but accept it and believe then they won’t be sinning 🙂 they will repent rather than willfully continue sinning

if we convince them sin isn’t a thing anymore and doesn’t matter they’ll live thiernown desires and think they are saved


“the Holy Spirit enables us to live for Christ...we are empowered by Him to obey”

yes agreed that’s why Christians don’t keep sinning they receive the spirit and start obeying the gospel rather than the flesh

People who trust in their own thoughts, words and deeds to present them as sinless before God who knows all things and is perfect probably have their own idea of what sin is and severely underestimate how righteous God is.


Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

2 Corinthians 10:5

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;”


James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


I will trust in Jesus as my savior. I will not trust in myself.


I do think it can be dangerous for people to be lazy, feed their flesh or do things their quickened spirit hates like God hates and would like to add that God is greater than any thing that may tempt us.


We don't HAVE to sin. He can provide victory every single time.

The reason it is even victory is because we are changed. New creatures.

I remember when very confused people who didn't understand our Father in heaven and our relationship once one is made new would say things like....


"You think if you're saved you can sin all you want?"

When in truth, His children do not want sin. Sin is a failure to us. Missing the mark.

Even so much as entertaining a thought you ought to have prayed for deliverance from would count as sin, or missing the mark.




You say words like

"if we convince them sin isn’t a thing anymore"

Or

"pretend it doesnt matter"


These things sound gross and nasty when held up to the light from my position.


Many who have assurance in Jesus to cover them with HIS righteousness before God opposed to their own, and ALL who have been made new see sin as a horrible failure that is "a thing" even if it takes place only in your heart or mind.


I sure hope when you stand before God, you aren't judged by your own righteousness but of His covering you completely.

 

[Isaskar]

Right, i shouldn't be allowed to tell people to stop sinning on an Christian forum ...makes sense.

It is 2022 after all I see you actually got banned.

 

[Oblio]

It is 2022 after all I see you actually got banned.

Just don't go to CB as he's there spewing his venom. He's says he's done with "luke-warm" Christians. Somehow, I think I'll be able to live with that! Lol