The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[Mem]

uh...I as replying to someone about a site they could not find

oh yea, and thanks for the reminder of the promised I'd made to find that for you, I'd just about forgotten all about it after the distraction of 1000 cuts and pastes.

 

[Genez]

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

Why did Jesus say what he did in John 6:65?


He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Because! The Jews who were about to stop following Jesus where seeking salvation by works. That is why they sought out "Rabbi Jesus" to see what set of works he would give them to do to be saved by.

Its why Jesus zapped them with one work that saves that He well knew would cause them to depart away from from being the dead weights they were following him around.

Here is the 'work' Jesus gave them to do knowing full well they could not handle it!

John 6:56-60


Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. ​

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one ​

who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down ​

from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this ​

bread will live forever.” He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”​

To eat his flesh and to drink his blood would be to have believed in Him onto salvation!

Jesus proclaimed not seek salvation by works.
But by God's drawing each one of us into the knowledge of what would be needed to have eternal life!

God drawing us does not mean God only draws those who get saved! It means it the process God uses
as a means to determine who He will save!

God's drawing is not irresistible! For men mentioned in Romans 1:18-22 were in the process of God drawing
them, and they willed to suppress the truth the drawing provided them, and replaced the truth with a lie!

​

Romans 1:18-22​

​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness ​

of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God ​

is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world ​

God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being ​

understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but ​

their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed ​

to be wise, they became fools​

Note!

.. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...

These men were being drawn by God!
They resisted, and rejected God's drawing!

Calvinism has really done a number on the body of Christ by interjecting dogmatic induced confusion into the minds of believers.

The truth makes you free.


.. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...

God does the work in drawing us.
But, his drawing is not irresistible.
That is why God is free to judge and condemn all who reject Jesus Christ!
For they are personally accountable to God for rejecting His drawing them!



grace and peace ....

 

[Niki7]

@Niki7 …. On another thread, your exact words were the following: “There is nothing whatsoever in the Bible that will agree with your beliefs about the elect are chosen and the rest of us poor slobs get to choose. Nothing.”

That statement was the basis for this thread. No one EVER accused you of being “unchosen,” or in your own words, one of “the rest of us poor slobs” who have free choice.

The fact is, you jumped on what you believed to be false doctrine that actually was not. You may not agree with another Christian’s interpretation of election, but if you don’t, just provide scriptural evidence so we can ALL benefit. People often disagree on interpretations of scripture. It happens all the time here, and people have vigorous debates. That’s great. But there is never any reason to be mean-spirited when we disagree; unfortunately, however, many are. CC has lots of “extra-grace-required” people here trying to participate and learn—people who NEED fellowship and encouragement. Some of them may not agree with you, even when you think you have a question all together worked out. Maybe their persistence in “interrupting” is no more than attempt to get you to see something you may not have considered—or maybe they (or you) just don’t understand. That is NO reason to label someone “divisive.”

As far as false accusations go, you have made QUITE a few. I am not trying to tell you how to act. The Spirit should be producing fruit….
I have no power to make it grow in you.

Believe me, I won’t post on this thread again—unless I see more name-calling or unkind
remarks or people banned just because their presence is not wanted in a debate.

I really got under your skin eh?

I will admit there are false words being tossed about ms bee, but not coming from me

since you like lecturing so much, why don't you start your own thread and you could call it 'The Bee Lectures Everyone on Everything'

people who need fellowship and encouragement probably left your advice column a looooong time ago

 

[Niki7]

I finally found the site I was thinking of after digging through a mountain of entries that are spinoffs of Arnold Murray's Shepherd's Chapel ministries. It is basically an online copy of a book written by a husband-and-wife team, David and Zoe, God's Plan For All. I don't recall which specific excerpt of it that the search engine retrieved when I initially searched using keys words that I used I used going by the summarization of the ideas expressed in a particular post I had encountered (something on the elect and the first earth age). So, I'm not sure this is exactly the idea's origination came of a common source as the other, or if it is only just another variation. Forgive the run on sentences, but there it is.

oh thanks

oh yea, and thanks for the reminder of the promised I'd made to find that for you, I'd just about forgotten all about it after the distraction of 1000 cuts and pastes.

1000 cuts and pastes....now why does that remind me of the death by a thousand cuts?

 

[selahsays]

I really got under your skin eh?

I will admit there are false words being tossed about ms bee, but not coming from me

since you like lecturing so much, why don't you start your own thread and you could call it 'The Bee Lectures Everyone on Everything'

people who need fellowship and encouragement probably left your advice column a looooong time ago

Lots of hate and mean-ness. How come, you (and you and you…)? You’re gonna wear yourself out.

 

[Mem]

oh thanks



1000 cuts and pastes....now why does that remind me of the death by a thousand cuts?

That was no accident, Ms Meanie Meanerton. (lol, there are no safe rooms here... )

 

[BeeBlessed]

Sigh…. Somebody needs to take her magnesium.

 

[Mem]

Sigh…. Somebody needs to take her magnesium.

Finally, some good advice.
I had to apply some liberally to my legs after serving 500 Mothers and their appreciative children. Patiently looking forward to Mag's rendition of her twin, shamrockin' my temporary tatt.

 

[Genez]

Finally, some good advice.
I had to apply some liberally to my legs after serving 500 Mothers and their appreciative children. Patiently looking forward to Mag's rendition of her twin, shamrockin' my temporary tatt.

What does that mean? To your legs?

 

[Mem]

What does that mean? To your legs?

Magnesium helps in relieving Charlie horses caused from a combination of an over exertion and failure to properly hydrate during the exercise of them. Someone working alongside had a step counted and logged over 10k steps, but he was consider taking "light duty" responsibility working with a broken hand. I'd have offered him an application if brought it to work with me, because it helps in wound repair as much, but I keep it always within reach on my nightstand for such frequent occasions I am overworked. I don't try and make excuses for my abrasive personality, but this might provide insight as to why my patience is worn thin carrying the burdens for want of the softer help putting more energy into whining and crying than making much difference in the workload. I figure, if they are free to whine as much, then I might as well take my liberty to growl as I see fitting, even though I'd rather be at such leisure as to have nothing to whine about apart from the annoyance that everyone fails to recognize the great privilege my presence bestows on those born in service to me. But I digress...

 

[Magenta]

It's absolutely understandable to try to get a better understanding of an idea, especially if those presenting
it as truth are having difficulty expressing it in a way that can be received as deniably true. I totally get that.

The problem was that the idea itself is self-refuting and contradictory, so there is no way to express it as biblical truth. I was present throughout the conversation as it was happening in the other thread just before this thread was created to further explore it, and I asked for clarification, hoping to elicit a sensible response, but it was not forthcoming, and in fact, my asking for clarification was met with some disdain, as if my asking for clarification meant I did not understand the gospel message. It has repeatedly been put to me that I do not understand something properly, when I understand perfectly well that you cannot say that those God did not choose or elect to salvation can choose to believe and then they also are/become the chosen or elect. The chosen were spoken of as if they belonged to some special category of people like Moses, Paul, and Jeremiah, as if they and they alone had some special purpose to fulfill for God. The whole presentation was a mish mash mess. It can be summarized as such:

The chosen have a special purpose to fulfill for God.
The elect will come to believe.
Those not chosen or elect can also of their own free will choose to believe.
Anyone who believes is chosen/elect.

 

[Genez]

Magnesium helps in relieving Charlie horses caused from a combination of an over exertion and failure to properly hydrate during the exercise of them. Someone working alongside had a step counted and logged over 10k steps, but he was consider taking "light duty" responsibility working with a broken hand. I'd have offered him an application if brought it to work with me, because it helps in wound repair as much, but I keep it always within reach on my nightstand for such frequent occasions I am overworked. I don't try and make excuses for my abrasive personality, but this might provide insight as to why my patience is worn thin carrying the burdens for want of the softer help putting more energy into whining and crying than making much difference in the workload. I figure, if they are free to whine as much, then I might as well take my liberty to growl as I see fitting, even though I'd rather be at such leisure as to have nothing to whine about apart from the annoyance that everyone fails to recognize the great privilege my presence bestows on those born in service to me. But I digress...

"Born"in service to you? You an obstetrician?


How are you applying magnesium to your legs?
Topically? Using magnesium oil?

We had been discussing about taking magnesium internally for keeping our nerves calm as they normally could be.

Also, taking magnesium during sleep hours can help prevent leg cramps.
Magnesium glycinate is a good form to take.
Magnesium citrate is good, but it can act as a laxative...

The Lord Jesus Christ put plenty of magnesium into making Adam's body.


.....

 

[Mem]

"Born"in service to you? You an obstetrician?


How are you applying magnesium to your legs?
Topically? Using magnesium oil?

We had been discussing about taking magnesium internally for keeping our nerves calm as they normally could be.

Also, taking magnesium during sleep hours can help prevent leg cramps.
Magnesium glycinate is a good form to take.
Magnesium citrate is good, but it can act as a laxative...

The Lord Jesus Christ put plenty of magnesium into making Adam's body.


.....

I was just making fun of whimpers, I hopelessly incorrigible.
And yes, I apply it topical in the form of magnesium chloride with seaweed extract and aloe vera as carriers. I think it peculiar that Magnesium's atom number is 12... which brings to mind "yielding 12 manners of fruit...given for the healing of the nations."

 

[Mem]

The whole presentation was a mish mash mess. It can be summarized as such:

The chosen have a special purpose to fulfill for God.
The elect will come to believe.
Those not chosen or elect can also of their own free will choose to believe.
Anyone who believes is chosen/elect.

I'm spinning in circles even trying to 'see' that.

 

[Niki7]

Magnesium helps in relieving Charlie horses caused from a combination of an over exertion and failure to properly hydrate during the exercise of them. Someone working alongside had a step counted and logged over 10k steps, but he was consider taking "light duty" responsibility working with a broken hand. I'd have offered him an application if brought it to work with me, because it helps in wound repair as much, but I keep it always within reach on my nightstand for such frequent occasions I am overworked. I don't try and make excuses for my abrasive personality, but this might provide insight as to why my patience is worn thin carrying the burdens for want of the softer help putting more energy into whining and crying than making much difference in the workload. I figure, if they are free to whine as much, then I might as well take my liberty to growl as I see fitting, even though I'd rather be at such leisure as to have nothing to whine about apart from the annoyance that everyone fails to recognize the great privilege my presence bestows on those born in service to me. But I digress...

I have no problem with your personality. It is refreshing after the stale bread and corked wine being passed by so many here

you cannot teach or help people who refuse the truth. they just go deeper into error. always

 

[Burn1986]

Lol. What happened to your bootlicker? Did he get banned?

Ha, I like that word “bootlicker”

 

[Burn1986]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

Now I understand most of your topics. I’m amazed that a senior member on this chat is undecided on Jesus. Why?

 

[Niki7]

Now I understand most of your topics. I’m amazed that a senior member on this chat is undecided on Jesus. Why?

most of my topics? what would those be?

no one posting in this thread has denied salvation through Christ

I'm sorry, but I think you are misunderstanding what is going on in this forum

 

[Burn1986]

most of my topics? what would those be?

no one posting in this thread has denied salvation through Christ

I'm sorry, but I think you are misunderstanding what is going on in this forum

Okay, two of your topics - this one, and Biblical Mary. So, what is your stance on salvation? Maybe I’m off and you’re a spirit filled believer.

 

[Burn1986]

most of my topics? what would those be?

no one posting in this thread has denied salvation through Christ

I'm sorry, but I think you are misunderstanding what is going on in this forum

Well, now I’m having to go back and re-read. It looks like the Biblical Mary was a resurrected thread. So, I misread that one. This one is still taking some time to understand where you’re coming from. So, I was a little presumptuous. I’ll try and read up on this one. Thus elect non-elect predestined stuff is so weird. To me it’s garbage but some of these threads go on forever debating this stuff.