The conversion of the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16.

[wattie]

Can anyone show me where it is stated that faith alone saves a person? Paul said persons believe into righteousness with their hearts, which is not salvation. And they acknowledge into salvation with their mouth. So it's not just faith alone; acknowledgement that Jesus is lord is also required to be saved. And baptism is acknowledgment that Jesus is lord.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth acknowledgement is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10​

This is faith alone.

Its believing Jesus is God, lived sinless, that He died and rose again, and that by belief in Him you have eternal life.

Thats faith alone.

Also, what happens with the mouth here is declaring what has already happened... so as you say..a mute person would be doing this internally.

 

[mailmandan]

This is faith alone.

Its believing Jesus is God, lived sinless, that He died and rose again, and that by belief in Him you have eternal life.

Thats faith alone.

Also, what happens with the mouth here is declaring what has already happened... so as you say..a mute person would be doing this internally.

Amen! The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together (Romans 10:8-10) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, as some teach. Faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) which means we are saved at that point. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit (with divine influence) that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

 

[wattie]

Amen! The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together (Romans 10:8-10) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, as some teach. Faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) which means we are saved at that point. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit (with divine influence) that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

I know there is a debate amongst baptists (and no doubt others) whether the salvation is at the point of belief..or at the point of confession. I would push for it being at the point of belief..with the confession declaring what has already happened in salvation.

Mainly because of the situation of people who cannot verbalize

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I would push for it being at the point of belief..with the confession declaring what has already happened in salvation.

Mainly because of the situation of people who cannot verbalize

I believe this makes perfect sense, because:

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking By The​

Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that​

Jesus Is The Lord, but By The Holy Ghost." (1 Corinthians 12:3 AV)​

After the believer receives The Holy Spirit [ Instantaneous Salvation/Sealing? ],
in order to even "say" [physically OR internally "mouth of the heart ?] the above,
Correct?

Amen.

 

[Beckworth]

This is faith alone.

Its believing Jesus is God, lived sinless, that He died and rose again, and that by belief in Him you have eternal life.

Thats faith alone.

Also, what happens with the mouth here is declaring what has already happened... so as you say..a mute person would be doing this internally.

James 2:24- “…not by faith only.(alone).

 

[Beckworth]

I know there is a debate amongst baptists (and no doubt others) whether the salvation is at the point of belief..or at the point of confession. I would push for it being at the point of belief..with the confession declaring what has already happened in salvation.

Mainly because of the situation of people who cannot verbalize

It’s neither. And “confession” is believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God according to Acts 8:37, and 1 John 4:15. Not “declaring what has already happened in salvation.

Question: if salvation is at the point of faith, what did Peter mean when he said baptism is for the remission of sins and saves us? And what did Ananias mean when he told Saul to be baptized and “wash away his sins”? And why did Jesus place baptism BEFORE salvation, not after salvation? And why did Peter COMMAND it? And why did Paul say it was necessary before anyone could call themselves after Christ?

That’s just too much evidence to the contrary. The only place where the blood of Jesus can “cleanse” us of our sins is when we are baptized into his “death” Romans 6. Where did Jesus shed His blood? In His death. So. If you believe in “faith only” at what point do you believe the blood of Jesus cleanses you of sin? At the point of faith? At the point of confession? Maybe at the point of repentance? What SCRIPTURE would you use to try to prove this?

 

[Believer08]

If baptism comes after salvation as most teach, and to have salvation is to be made alive with Christ (Eph. 2:5, Col. 2:13), since baptism is a burial..why do they bury people who are alive? We don’t bury people who are alive. We bury dead people. In baptism they are buried to be raised up to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4). Not before.

 

[Beckworth]

If baptism comes after salvation as most teach, and to have salvation is to be made alive with Christ (Eph. 2:5, Col. 2:13), since baptism is a burial..why do they bury people who are alive? We don’t bury people who are alive. We bury dead people. In baptism they are buried to be raised up to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4). Not before.

Very good point! Those who believe in salvation BEFORE BAPTISM should read Romans 6.

Roman’s 6:6 explains that it’s the “old man of sin” that was crucified with Him. That’s why we are raised to a NEW life. It’s not burying a “live” man—it’s burying a man “dead” in his sins. We were buried into his death, crucified with him, “that the body of sin might be done away.” “That we should no longer be slaves of sin.” The new man that is raised to walk in newness of life is the LIVE man. The old sinful man is baptized into His death (verse 3) where we are “crucified” with Him (verse 6), that’s where our sins are done away, we “died with Christ (verses 8). We are “dead to sin” ( verse 11) and just like Christ was raised from the dead, we also are raised from baptism to walk in a new life. Verse 5. verse 17 says we “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered, and having been set free from sin…”. Again, this passage agrees with every other scripture that teaches baptism saves us.

 

[studier]

In John 6:29, Jesus' play on words here - "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," was in response to the Jews who were taking a legalistic approach when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works, which would contradict (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9).

A few translations:

27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NKJ)

27 Do not work for the food that disappears, but for the food that remains to eternal life– the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him." 28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NET)

27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 ESV)

Some questions for you and anyone else who'd like to answer:

1. Is Jesus talking with believers or unbelievers?
2. What did Jesus tell - actually command - them to do in 6:27?
3. Do you have a preference for one of the translations or another one - which one?
4. You say the Jews were taking a legalistic approach in 6:28. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly are they asking Jesus?
   2. Why are they asking Jesus the question?
5. You say Jesus' answer in 6:29 is a play on words. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly is Jesus telling them?

Thanks.

 

[studier]

John chapter 3..mention of water.. is amniotic fluid of the womb because that is what the subject is.

That's one view.

A widely accepted view is that water & Spirit are two words speaking of the same thing and pointing mainly to Ez36:25-29 where God speaks of the new birth and water and Spirit.

 

[studier]

It is not cultic at all. Instead, it is the answer of a good conscience towards God.

I've always found this verse interesting. Note the different translations especially when considering what baptism may include:

NKJ 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NET 1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

ESV 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NAS 1 Peter 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Thoughts?

 

[wattie]

That's one view.

A widely accepted view is that water & Spirit are two words speaking of the same thing and pointing mainly to Ez36:25-29 where God speaks of the new birth and water and Spirit.

Yeah seeing water as the washing of sin away by the Holy Spirit I have no qualms with.

 

[studier]

Nowhere in the New Testament does it even “hint” that baptism is unnecessary.

Does Scripture ever say that we're not saved if we're not physically baptized?

 

[wattie]

It’s neither. And “confession” is believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God according to Acts 8:37, and 1 John 4:15. Not “declaring what has already happened in salvation.

Question: if salvation is at the point of faith, what did Peter mean when he said baptism is for the remission of sins and saves us? And what did Ananias mean when he told Saul to be baptized and “wash away his sins”? And why did Jesus place baptism BEFORE salvation, not after salvation? And why did Peter COMMAND it? And why did Paul say it was necessary before anyone could call themselves after Christ?

That’s just too much evidence to the contrary. The only place where the blood of Jesus can “cleanse” us of our sins is when we are baptized into his “death” Romans 6. Where did Jesus shed His blood? In His death. So. If you believe in “faith only” at what point do you believe the blood of Jesus cleanses you of sin? At the point of faith? At the point of confession? Maybe at the point of repentance? What SCRIPTURE would you use to try to prove this?

John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

At belief

John 3:18 KJV
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

At belief

John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

at belief

John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

at belief

Romans 10:11-13 KJV - 1 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

at belief

Romans 5:1-2 KJV - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

at belief/faith

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:24- “…not by faith only.(alone).

What did James mean by "justified" by works? Accounted as righteous or shown to be righteous?

Thayer's Greek dikaióō

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

James 2:14 - says/claims to have faith but has not works. James 2:18 - I will show you my faith by my works. Fits the context.

What did James mean by faith only (alone)? Authentic faith that refuses to produce works or an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works?" Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[studier]

What about Romans 10?

What about Romans 10? What’s your point?just because confession is necessary that does not eliminates baptism, any more than saving faith eliminates baptism.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Firstly, @keepingthingsreal thanks for doing the work to link the verses. I'm going to be lazy about it because as far as I can tell it looks like some work.

There are several views of this area of Romans 10 with some interesting points IMO:

• The reference to Deut30:14 may be a Hebrew idiom saying if something is in the mind and mouth it means it's understood and can be spoken. IOW we can explain something we understand. Note also the calling on the name of the Lord reference which speaks of understanding who He is and of Faith in Him.
• Paul is learned in Hebrew and Greek methods of writing. This Scripture Rom10:9-10 is seen by some as written in the Hebrew method of Inversion which is making belief and confession essentially synonymous.
• I also see a chiastic structure. So, building on the sequence of information:
  • Confess in your mouth Lord Jesus
    • Believe in your heart God resurrected Lord Jesus
      • You will be saved
    • Resurrected Lord Jesus is believed in heart for righteousness
  • Resurrected Lord Jesus is confessed in mouth for salvation
• This ties to Paul's instruction in 1Cor15 re: the necessity for believing in Jesus' resurrection - if He's not resurrected, then He's not YHWH's Christ/King & our faith is worthless.
• This understanding (heart & mouth), synonymous meaning, and importance of resurrection may well be what Paul is saying in 10:9 if we view the "and" in this way: NKJ Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and/namely/meaning believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
• There's also a tie to John12:42-46 and context.
• Several other points but enough for now.

Not much said in Romans re: baptism (Rom6).

All that took place in Acts16 is open to some speculation, but I assume the high points are there.

 

[studier]

What did James mean by "justified" by works? Accounted as righteous or shown to be righteous?

Thayer's Greek dikaióō

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

James 2:14 - says/claims to have faith but has not works. James 2:18 - I will show you my faith by my works. Fits the context.

What did James mean by faith only (alone)? Authentic faith that refuses to produce works or an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works?" Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Thayer's actually puts James2:21, 24 under the 3rd definition on the above list. Click "Show all" under Thayer's & see 3.b at the link

 

[mailmandan]

Thayer's actually puts James2:21, 24 under the 3rd definition on the above list. Click "Show all" under Thayer's & see 3.b at the link

I see where Strong's mentions "show or regard as" and James said, "I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18) In regard to 3b, it mentions declared God to be righteous, by receiving the baptism declared that it had been prescribed by God rightly. (John 7:29) Must be a similar usage with shown to be righteous.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make God righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

 

[studier]

I see where Strong's mentions "show or regard as" and James said, "I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18) In regard to 3b, it mentions declared God to be righteous, by receiving the baptism declared that it had been prescribed by God rightly. (John 7:29) Must be a similar usage with shown to be righteous.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make God righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Just clarifying that you're highlighting Thayer's to disagree with Thayer.

Is there "Authentic faith" that does not have, or "show" works?

What does James mean by: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? (Jas. 2:21-22 NKJ) (ESV James 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; (Jas. 2:22 ESV)?

 

[mailmandan]

Just clarifying that you're highlighting Thayer's to disagree with Thayer.

I did not realize that I was disagreeing with Thayer's.

Is there "Authentic faith" that does not have, or "show" works?

Not according to Scripture.

What does James mean by: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? (Jas. 2:21-22 NKJ) (ESV James 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; (Jas. 2:22 ESV)?

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means to complete like love in 1 John 4:18, in regard to maturity. It does not mean that Abraham's faith remained incomplete to save him in Genesis 15:6 (when his faith was accounted to him for righteousness) until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. It also does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar many years later in Genesis 22 either.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.