The Adamic Problem
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The Bible says that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, who is God manifest in the flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, eternal life.
Which Jesus is the firstborn of the creatures, and the beginning of creation, although He was not born until 4000 years later, but He is God manifest in the flesh.
And Adam was made in the image of God, and in the figure of Christ, so the image of God is the image of Christ, so God had the plan to come in the future in flesh, and created Adam in that image, an innocent nature in flesh.
So the let us create man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image, and can be considered in the beginning before He is born, because God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.
So Jesus was the first plan God had before creation, who is God manifest in the flesh, so this plan had to happen and could not be thwarted for eternal life was sure to be given.
But if Adam and Eve did not sin then Jesus would not have come to be the Savior of the world, so it was inevitable that Adam and Eve would sin, for it was the first plan God had for Him to be manifest in flesh as the Savior of the world.
So Adam and Eve were going to sin, but was it planned by God, or did they sin freely and God foresaw it.
However a person answers they were going to sin, and could not avoid it, for it was already planned for Jesus to be the Savior of the world before God created anything.
God cannot be tempted with evil neither does He tempt any man, but they are tempted by the lust of the flesh, and He created man upright but they sought out many inventions.
So it appears as if God did not create Adam and Eve to fall but they freely sinned coming from them.
Since Adam and Eve were created with an innocent nature in flesh it would of never entered their mind to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil unless an outside source tempted them, so God allowed Satan to tempt Eve and she sinned, and Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him she did not die and he sinned.
Which it seems like the only answer is that their fall did not come from any influence from God Himself, but He knew they would fail when Satan tempted Eve, and Eve tempted Adam, for it was already planned out for the Savior to come before God created anything so God knew they would sin, but He allowed it to happen, but He did not influence them Himself for them to fall.
Adam and Eve's fall had to be foreseen for Jesus was the Savior of the world before God created anything, for He was the first plan before God created the world, for Jesus is the beginning of creation.
For if God did not know if Adam and Eve would sin when tempted then how can Jesus be the beginning of creation that God was sure that would happen, and it would happen for it was already the plan.
But if Adam and Eve did not sin would any of their offspring sin and then sin would enter the world, but if Adam and Eve did not sin then it would appear that none of their offspring would sin because they would be born without a choice and could not sin unless an outside source tempted them, and Satan would not be the god of this world to tempt people for Eve shut him down, and did not tempt Adam, or would Satan still be allowed to tempt people until he got one of them to sin, but he would not be able to tempt them for Adam did not fall shutting him down.
So it was inevitable that Adam and Eve were going to sin, but God would not be the influence, but He knew they would fail when Satan tempted Eve, and Eve tempted Adam, for how could God not know when Jesus is the beginning of creation.
Which Jesus is the firstborn of the creatures, and the beginning of creation, although He was not born until 4000 years later, but He is God manifest in the flesh.
And Adam was made in the image of God, and in the figure of Christ, so the image of God is the image of Christ, so God had the plan to come in the future in flesh, and created Adam in that image, an innocent nature in flesh.
So the let us create man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image, and can be considered in the beginning before He is born, because God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.
So Jesus was the first plan God had before creation, who is God manifest in the flesh, so this plan had to happen and could not be thwarted for eternal life was sure to be given.
But if Adam and Eve did not sin then Jesus would not have come to be the Savior of the world, so it was inevitable that Adam and Eve would sin, for it was the first plan God had for Him to be manifest in flesh as the Savior of the world.
So Adam and Eve were going to sin, but was it planned by God, or did they sin freely and God foresaw it.
However a person answers they were going to sin, and could not avoid it, for it was already planned for Jesus to be the Savior of the world before God created anything.
God cannot be tempted with evil neither does He tempt any man, but they are tempted by the lust of the flesh, and He created man upright but they sought out many inventions.
So it appears as if God did not create Adam and Eve to fall but they freely sinned coming from them.
Since Adam and Eve were created with an innocent nature in flesh it would of never entered their mind to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil unless an outside source tempted them, so God allowed Satan to tempt Eve and she sinned, and Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him she did not die and he sinned.
Which it seems like the only answer is that their fall did not come from any influence from God Himself, but He knew they would fail when Satan tempted Eve, and Eve tempted Adam, for it was already planned out for the Savior to come before God created anything so God knew they would sin, but He allowed it to happen, but He did not influence them Himself for them to fall.
Adam and Eve's fall had to be foreseen for Jesus was the Savior of the world before God created anything, for He was the first plan before God created the world, for Jesus is the beginning of creation.
For if God did not know if Adam and Eve would sin when tempted then how can Jesus be the beginning of creation that God was sure that would happen, and it would happen for it was already the plan.
But if Adam and Eve did not sin would any of their offspring sin and then sin would enter the world, but if Adam and Eve did not sin then it would appear that none of their offspring would sin because they would be born without a choice and could not sin unless an outside source tempted them, and Satan would not be the god of this world to tempt people for Eve shut him down, and did not tempt Adam, or would Satan still be allowed to tempt people until he got one of them to sin, but he would not be able to tempt them for Adam did not fall shutting him down.
So it was inevitable that Adam and Eve were going to sin, but God would not be the influence, but He knew they would fail when Satan tempted Eve, and Eve tempted Adam, for how could God not know when Jesus is the beginning of creation.
trofimus,
I am concerned that you are saying something deep and I might be missing it. To me the issue is very simple, so I will need your help to see if I am simply too dumb to understand what you are saying! Please don’t think I am being ironic or sarcastic.
Why can’t Adam make a free choice that is not pre determined and God, who does not influence this decision in any way, still knows, because he is outside time, what free decision Adam is going to make?
Where is the logical fallacy?
I am concerned that you are saying something deep and I might be missing it. To me the issue is very simple, so I will need your help to see if I am simply too dumb to understand what you are saying! Please don’t think I am being ironic or sarcastic.
Why can’t Adam make a free choice that is not pre determined and God, who does not influence this decision in any way, still knows, because he is outside time, what free decision Adam is going to make?
Where is the logical fallacy?
that Calvin meme is hilarious thanks for the laugh 
this is a really interesting analogy.. not sure how far it goes.
the Israelites weren't spared from their slavery by being given straw, but by being taken out of bondage to brick-making altogether.
on the other hand, while in that bondage, they gathered their own straw ((Exodus 5:12)) - it wasn't about making bricks without straw, which would fall apart, it was about having the additional task of gathering the materials needed instead of having them provided for their work. this in itself wasn't the oppression, but that their quota of bricks was not reduced at all ((vv. 11, 14, 18, 19)) - i.e., no grace, no mercy.
but ultimately it was about the exodus -- God's own work to take the burden of brickmaking out of their hands. and when later they were given the law of how an altar should be made ((Exodus 20:24-26)) it wasn't to be made of bricks at all, nor straw, but either raw earth or unworked stone. they were not to put a tool to it, because by doing so they would defile it.
this is a really interesting analogy.. not sure how far it goes.
the Israelites weren't spared from their slavery by being given straw, but by being taken out of bondage to brick-making altogether.
on the other hand, while in that bondage, they gathered their own straw ((Exodus 5:12)) - it wasn't about making bricks without straw, which would fall apart, it was about having the additional task of gathering the materials needed instead of having them provided for their work. this in itself wasn't the oppression, but that their quota of bricks was not reduced at all ((vv. 11, 14, 18, 19)) - i.e., no grace, no mercy.
but ultimately it was about the exodus -- God's own work to take the burden of brickmaking out of their hands. and when later they were given the law of how an altar should be made ((Exodus 20:24-26)) it wasn't to be made of bricks at all, nor straw, but either raw earth or unworked stone. they were not to put a tool to it, because by doing so they would defile it.
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Adam and Eve did what they did by their own free will.. And God did foresee that it would happen..
People who believe God is restricted by Universe time simply cannot understand that God exists outside of the time He created for our universe and so can see all out times from the beginning to the end..
People who believe God is restricted by Universe time simply cannot understand that God exists outside of the time He created for our universe and so can see all out times from the beginning to the end..
You know....my view....there is a bigger, deeper picture overlooked about this whole experiment under the sun......God KNEW before hand what ADAM would do.....we know this because the bible states clearly that he began to reconcile the world unto himself BEFORE he even cast the world down in creation.........now think LOGICALLY, yet BIBLICALLY......WHY would God create a world, men and all there is, KNOWING before hand that MOST will die lost, EVEN though he would have ALL be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.....??
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
You know.....the bible has more than a handful of ideas that are HINTED at through scripture....not exactly clear, but seemingly obvious for those who go beyond the milk of the word into the realm of maturity based upon a full blown study and love of the word......the truth....most who name Christ in the world rarely go beyond the basics when it comes to the word.....they rarely pick up the word other than possibly Sunday morning, Sunday night and maybe Wednesday. Those who faithfully attend a true New Testament church know this to be true.......
My view....there is a bigger picture to the creation of man and this PHYSICAL existence under the sun.....just saying.....
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
You know.....the bible has more than a handful of ideas that are HINTED at through scripture....not exactly clear, but seemingly obvious for those who go beyond the milk of the word into the realm of maturity based upon a full blown study and love of the word......the truth....most who name Christ in the world rarely go beyond the basics when it comes to the word.....they rarely pick up the word other than possibly Sunday morning, Sunday night and maybe Wednesday. Those who faithfully attend a true New Testament church know this to be true.......
My view....there is a bigger picture to the creation of man and this PHYSICAL existence under the sun.....just saying.....
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It is an interesting concept and I have heard more than a few give this view and or reason.....and not mouthing or being sarcastic, but is there one verse that indicates this concept.....?
The reason I say this is because the bible makes it clear that LOVE is of GOD and from GOD as a spiritual gift (1st Corinthians 13).....so if I logically carry this line of thought out I come up with....God wants us to love him freely based upon the gift of love he gives us, and the LOVE of God is not based upon some worldly emotional response.......but is seen in obedience.....
I am not saying you are wrong.....just that it is one aspect of the bigger picture.......I personally believe that the book of JOB portrays more than the obvious......and this grand experiment under the sun involves a bigger, multi faceted truth as to the "whys" and or reasons......
The reason I say this is because the bible makes it clear that LOVE is of GOD and from GOD as a spiritual gift (1st Corinthians 13).....so if I logically carry this line of thought out I come up with....God wants us to love him freely based upon the gift of love he gives us, and the LOVE of God is not based upon some worldly emotional response.......but is seen in obedience.....
I am not saying you are wrong.....just that it is one aspect of the bigger picture.......I personally believe that the book of JOB portrays more than the obvious......and this grand experiment under the sun involves a bigger, multi faceted truth as to the "whys" and or reasons......
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People are pretty stupid. Some seem to be way more than others.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Why would the Lord tell us to do something that we have no capacity to do?
And then, after telling us to do it, why does He save us from the death and condemnation of not doing it?
The problem with telling people to repent is what do they repent towards? In other words, once they turn from their own ways, what do they then start doing? They can't repent of their own way until they know another Way to turn toward.
The carnal man doesn't know anything about this at all. Because the carnal man is exceptionally stupid.
Even the spiritual man only sees through a glass darkly...
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
IF you actually did that I think you would start to understand Calvinism a little better.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Why would the Lord tell us to do something that we have no capacity to do?
And then, after telling us to do it, why does He save us from the death and condemnation of not doing it?
The problem with telling people to repent is what do they repent towards? In other words, once they turn from their own ways, what do they then start doing? They can't repent of their own way until they know another Way to turn toward.
The carnal man doesn't know anything about this at all. Because the carnal man is exceptionally stupid.
Even the spiritual man only sees through a glass darkly...
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
IF you actually did that I think you would start to understand Calvinism a little better.
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IF you actually knew what you were talking about you would be even more in favor of Calvinism.
John 10:26-28
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:26-28
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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I suppose you would have to plug your ears and close your eyes and murmur slander in order to NOT HEAR and not try to understand the Truth.
But like you said, it is pretty simple.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation doesn't come from the good that YOU do. It doesn't come from your repentance. It doesn't come from your faith. It doesn't come because you are righteous.
Salvation is the gift of God.
The fruit of this Salvation is Repentance, Faith, Righteousness, etc...
How can you rightly divide the Word of Scripture and not come to these conclusions???
Unless you have not yet come to Christ....
But like you said, it is pretty simple.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation doesn't come from the good that YOU do. It doesn't come from your repentance. It doesn't come from your faith. It doesn't come because you are righteous.
Salvation is the gift of God.
The fruit of this Salvation is Repentance, Faith, Righteousness, etc...
How can you rightly divide the Word of Scripture and not come to these conclusions???
Unless you have not yet come to Christ....
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John Calvin was a big fan of Augustine. He quotes him extensively in his writings.
This is because Augustine kind of came up with the idea of calvinism. Thats where you get the idea that if someone isnt baptized when they're born and if they die they go to hell.
Thats also why calvinists only go to Augustine when talking about church history, they never like to dive deep to any earlier than that.
Augustine is really the main guy here, Calvin just refined and regurgitated his stuff.
Its amazing how much Augustine influenced things in the west. Crazy. Its the alexandrian philosophy.
This is because Augustine kind of came up with the idea of calvinism. Thats where you get the idea that if someone isnt baptized when they're born and if they die they go to hell.
Thats also why calvinists only go to Augustine when talking about church history, they never like to dive deep to any earlier than that.
Augustine is really the main guy here, Calvin just refined and regurgitated his stuff.
Its amazing how much Augustine influenced things in the west. Crazy. Its the alexandrian philosophy.
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The Bible states God knew the end from the beginning. This can be seen in the eclipses that pronounce God's judgment on countries. They were planned from creation. The US had an eclipse cross from east to west and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. That puts a massive cross on the US.