The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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Aug 3, 2019
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Go ahead and read over and over again Nehemiah 2:13. You lose.....

And consequently and undoubtedly, the 445 BCE decree is unquestionably the start of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy.....
Do you not understand that when Ezra left for Jerusalem, the king consented to give Ezra "all that he desired"? Did Ezra desire a wall? Did Ezra not say in his prayer in chapter 9 that God had moved the king's heart to give them a wall, which was long before 444?

I'm open to listen, but it seems you keep ignoring my points and pointing to the time of reinstatement and acting as if the permission to build the wall at that time was the first time.

Please show me where the permission during the reinstatement renders what I've said moot.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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No, the decree refers to "restore and rebuild Jerusalem", of which Ezra 9:9 KJV says Artaxerxes had already consented to give permission including the wall...long before 445-444 B.C.
Neh 2:17
Then I said unto them, "You see the distress that we are in, how Jerusalem lies waste, And it's gates are burned with fire. Come and let us build the walls of Jerusalem, That we may no longer be a reproach".

Neh 2:18
And I told them of the hand of my God, which had been good upon me, and also of the kings of words that he had spoken unto me. So they said "Let us rise up to build". Then they set their hands unto this good work.

Now go get your shine box.....
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Neh 2:17
Then I said unto them, "You see the distress that we are in, how Jerusalem lies waste, And it's gates are burned with fire. Come and let us build the walls of Jerusalem, That we may no longer be a reproach".

Neh 2:18
And I told them of the hand of my God, which had been good upon me, and also of the kings of words that he had spoken unto me. So they said "Let us rise up to build". Then they set their hands unto this good work.

Now go get your shine box.....
There's a difference between permission being given to build a wall in the time of Ezra....


...and people who refused to take full advantage of it in until the time of Nehemiah. Nothing you can do can disprove Ezra's plain words that God had already moved the king to give them a wall, and they would not have started working on it if the king had not communicated to them to do so...that would have been an act of treason.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
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There's a difference between permission being given to build a wall in the time of Ezra....


...and people who refused to take full advantage of it in until the time of Nehemiah. Nothing you can do can disprove Ezra's plain words that God had already moved the king to give them a wall, and they would not have started working on it if the king had not communicated to them to do so...that would have been an act of treason.
You're gonna need a bigger shoehorn and an audience of Scientologist to sell that rubbish.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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You're not familiar with Protestant Historicism? It was exclusively preached and taught in every non-Catholic church since before the time of Luther up until just about 100 years ago, when Jesuit Futurism began to creep into Protestantism...and now in the last 30 years: Jesuit Preterism.
Please define "historicism" as YOU have used it.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
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You're not familiar with Protestant Historicism? It was exclusively preached and taught in every non-Catholic church since before the time of Luther up until just about 100 years ago, when Jesuit Futurism began to creep into Protestantism...and now in the last 30 years: Jesuit Preterism.
Blindly adhering to the errors of the reformers is foolhardy at best. Replacement theology being the most grievous of all their heresies.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Blindly adhering to the errors of the reformers is foolhardy at best. Replacement theology being the most grievous of all their heresies.
Can you quit bloviating and just state your case?
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Did you know that the same publishing company that put out the "Left Behind" books by Lahey and Jenkins also afterward began to publish the Preterism series, beginning with "The Last Disciple"? Lahay and Jenkins, who believed their Jesuit Futurist ideas were Biblical, said they felt as if the publishing company stabbed them in the back.
I am not terribly au fait with "Left Behind". Surely they should have been happy that the publishing company was adding ballast to their doctrines?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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You said the building of the wall in Jerusalem wasn't permitted until Artaxerxes' 445 B.C. reinstatement of his original 457 B.C. decree that was suspended - what you call his "second" decree. Let's see if that's accurate:
1) In Ezra 7:6 KJV, we read that the king granted Ezra "all his request" and a wall was certainly among that request. How do we know? In Ezra 9:9 KJV, Ezra praises God for moving the heart of the king of Persia to "give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem". Here we see clear evidence Artaxerxes had a wall in mind from the beginning. What caught him by surprise was not their building the wall, but that the people were known to be so rebellious.
This doesn't seem exactly right either... because in 4:7,8,11,12-16, some bad dudes write a letter "to Artaxerxes the king" telling him [likely embellishing (i.e. LYING)] "that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations." Then the letter goes on to say, "Let it now be known to the king that if that city is rebuilt and its walls are restored, they will not pay tribute, duty, or toll, and the royal treasury will suffer. Now because we are in the service of the palace and it is not fitting for us to allow the king to be dishonored, we have sent to inform the king that a search should be made of the record books of your fathers. In these books you will discover and verify that the city is a rebellious city, harmful to kings and provinces, inciting sedition from ancient times. That is why this city was destroyed. We advise the king that if this city is rebuilt and its walls are restored, you will have no dominion west of the Euphrates."

The the king responds to that letter by saying (in part), "The letter you sent us has been translated and read in my presence. I issued a decree, and a search was conducted. It was discovered that this city has revolted against kings from ancient times, engaging in rebellion and sedition. And mighty kings have ruled over Jerusalem and exercised authority over the whole region west of the Euphrates; and tribute, duty, and toll were paid to them.
Now, therefore, issue an order for these men to stop, so that this city will not be rebuilt until I so order. See that you do not neglect this matter. Why allow this threat to increase and the royal interests to suffer?"

And then the last verse of this chapter says, "Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia." See that? There was no evidence that the city was actually being rebuilt (only "bad guys spreading falsehoods, in order to get them in trouble and prevent what it was they *were* accomplishing re: "the work of the house of God" at that point); and the whole context is worded in such a way that it sounds to me as though the king was being *informed* of such a thing re: "the city" (even tho it wasn't actually the case that "the city" was being rebuilt... only "the house of God")... and that the king says, "[no more build] UNTIL a commandment be given by me"... which is what we see at the later time. Does that make sense? (I'm kinda tired atm :D )

IOW, the letter would not need to start out (as it does) by saying anything like it is informing the king that they are rebuilding the city, etc, but it does start out that way... If he had decreed that, then just start off the letter by saying, "Uh, mr. king, that was dumb what you just did... and here's why..." but it doesn't in any way acknowledge that he was the initiator... and the last verse only gives evidence on "what we already know" *WAS* decreed (re: "the house of the Lord") up to that point... (work on IT is what "ceased" at that point, per v.24, clearly stated as fact).

2) Unlike the decrees of Cyrus and Darius which were limited temple restoration, Artaxerxes' comprehensive decree fits Gabriel's prediction (Daniel 9:26 KJV) Israel would work "to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem" by virtue of its provisions for reestablishing the priesthood, educational system, constabulary, and justice system. Judgments always took place in the gates (which were fastened to walls) of ancient cities, including Jerusalem.
3) Every city in antiquity had a wall around it for defense - Artaxerxes had plenty of walled cities under his dominion. He knew a wall in Jerusalem was every bit as necessary for them as any other city so no mention of it in the decree was necessary.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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It all sounds like a classic case of contractor overreach:

"Yeh - stick a wall on it mate"
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Apart from the fact that Artaxerxes sounds like a plaster sealant you'd find in
the DIY store, how can he be pre-Cyrus (circa 520BC) and also 465BC?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ ... speaking of which... [the word "wall"]...

...the word for "a wall" in Ezra 9:9 is "H1447 - gader" (used in the following verses also):

Psalm 62:3 - [translated 'fence' in kjv, and distinct from another word in this verse: "wall H7023]"]

Berean Study Bible
How long will you threaten a man? Will all of you throw him down like a leaning wall [H7023] or a tottering fence [H1447]?

King James Bible
How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall [H7023] shall ye be, and as a tottering fence [H1447].



Psalm 80:12 - [translated 'hedges' in kjv]

Berean Study Bible
Why have You broken down its walls [H1447], so that all who pass by pick its fruit?

King James Bible
Why hast thou then broken down her hedges [H1447], so that all they which pass by the way do pluck her?


Ecclesiates 10:8 - [translated 'an hedge' in kjv] -

Berean Study Bible
He who digs a pit may fall into it, and he who breaches a wall [H1447] may be bitten by a snake.

King James Bible
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge [H1447], a serpent shall bite him.


Ezekiel 13:5 - [translated 'the hedge' in kjv] -

Berean Study Bible
You did not go up to the gaps or restore the wall [H1447] around the house of Israel so that it would stand in the battle on the Day of the LORD.

King James Bible
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge [H1447] for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.


Ezekiel 22:30 - [translated 'the hedge' in kjv] -

Berean Study Bible
I searched for a man among them to repair the wall [H1447] and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, so that I should not destroy it. But I found no one.

King James Bible
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge [H1447], and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.


____________

The word in Daniel 9:25 (translated "wall" in kjv) is "H2742 - charuwts / charuts" (in some translations as "trench, moat, ditch, rampart"... https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2742.htm )



:unsure: (are these the same concept... or differing??)


____________

P.S. Naw, man... chpt 4 is covering a LONG SPANS OF TIME... not merely one point in their history... right?? (covering various points in their history...)
 
Oct 23, 2020
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^ ... speaking of which... [the word "wall"]...

...the word for "a wall" in Ezra 9:9 is "H1447 - gader" (used in the following verses also):

Psalm 62:3 - [translated 'fence' in kjv, and distinct from another word in this verse: "wall H7023]"]

Berean Study Bible
How long will you threaten a man? Will all of you throw him down like a leaning wall [H7023] or a tottering fence [H1447]?

King James Bible
How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall [H7023] shall ye be, and as a tottering fence [H1447].



Psalm 80:12 - [translated 'hedges' in kjv]

Berean Study Bible
Why have You broken down its walls [H1447], so that all who pass by pick its fruit?

King James Bible
Why hast thou then broken down her hedges [H1447], so that all they which pass by the way do pluck her?


Ecclesiates 10:8 - [translated 'an hedge' in kjv] -

Berean Study Bible
He who digs a pit may fall into it, and he who breaches a wall [H1447] may be bitten by a snake.

King James Bible
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge [H1447], a serpent shall bite him.


Ezekiel 13:5 - [translated 'the hedge' in kjv] -

Berean Study Bible
You did not go up to the gaps or restore the wall [H1447] around the house of Israel so that it would stand in the battle on the Day of the LORD.

King James Bible
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge [H1447] for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.


Ezekiel 22:30 - [translated 'the hedge' in kjv] -

Berean Study Bible
I searched for a man among them to repair the wall [H1447] and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, so that I should not destroy it. But I found no one.

King James Bible
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge [H1447], and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.


____________

The word in Daniel 9:25 (translated "wall" in kjv) is "H2742 - charuwts / charuts" (in some translations as "trench, moat, ditch, rampart"... https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2742.htm )



:unsure: (are these the same concept... or differing??)


____________

P.S. Naw, man... chpt 4 is covering a LONG SPANS OF TIME... not merely one point in their history... right?? (covering various points in their history...)
Well spotted. They are totally different as you imply. The trench speaks of Herod's massive and extensive excavation and reconstruction work on the temple mount. That is why in Zechariah 9:3 Tyrus's building work 'heaps up'.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There's a difference between permission being given to build a wall in the time of Ezra....


...and people who refused to take full advantage of it in until the time of Nehemiah. Nothing you can do can disprove Ezra's plain words that God had already moved the king to give them a wall, and they would not have started working on it if the king had not communicated to them to do so...that would have been an act of treason.
There is a difference.

Ezra gave the command to rebuild the temple. Not the city

Nehemiah was given the command to rebuild the city.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I am not terribly au fait with "Left Behind". Surely they should have been happy that the publishing company was adding ballast to their doctrines?
I never saw it. I heard it was not really in line with the word so I skipped it. Like I did the noah movie and new moses movie in the past few years
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,618
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This doesn't seem exactly right either... because in 4:7,8,11,12-16, some bad dudes write a letter "to Artaxerxes the king" telling him [likely embellishing (i.e. LYING)] "that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations." Then the letter goes on to say, "Let it now be known to the king that if that city is rebuilt and its walls are restored, they will not pay tribute, duty, or toll, and the royal treasury will suffer. Now because we are in the service of the palace and it is not fitting for us to allow the king to be dishonored, we have sent to inform the king that a search should be made of the record books of your fathers. In these books you will discover and verify that the city is a rebellious city, harmful to kings and provinces, inciting sedition from ancient times. That is why this city was destroyed. We advise the king that if this city is rebuilt and its walls are restored, you will have no dominion west of the Euphrates."

The the king responds to that letter by saying (in part), "The letter you sent us has been translated and read in my presence. I issued a decree, and a search was conducted. It was discovered that this city has revolted against kings from ancient times, engaging in rebellion and sedition. And mighty kings have ruled over Jerusalem and exercised authority over the whole region west of the Euphrates; and tribute, duty, and toll were paid to them.
Now, therefore, issue an order for these men to stop, so that this city will not be rebuilt until I so order. See that you do not neglect this matter. Why allow this threat to increase and the royal interests to suffer?"

And then the last verse of this chapter says, "Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia." See that? There was no evidence that the city was actually being rebuilt (only "bad guys spreading falsehoods, in order to get them in trouble and prevent what it was they *were* accomplishing re: "the work of the house of God" at that point); and the whole context is worded in such a way that it sounds to me as though the king was being *informed* of such a thing re: "the city" (even tho it wasn't actually the case that "the city" was being rebuilt... only "the house of God")... and that the king says, "[no more build] UNTIL a commandment be given by me"... which is what we see at the later time. Does that make sense? (I'm kinda tired atm :D )

IOW, the letter would not need to start out (as it does) by saying anything like it is informing the king that they are rebuilding the city, etc, but it does start out that way... If he had decreed that, then just start off the letter by saying, "Uh, mr. king, that was dumb what you just did... and here's why..." but it doesn't in any way acknowledge that he was the initiator... and the last verse only gives evidence on "what we already know" *WAS* decreed (re: "the house of the Lord") up to that point... (work on IT is what "ceased" at that point, per v.24, clearly stated as fact).
Yes that chapter puts the nail in the coffin on the 457BC theory. I was going to post that as well but I'm having trouble on this updated TV browser it won't let me copy and paste. It is quite literally crippling me :censored: :cry:

It is entirely likely that these detractors DID understand that the first decree did NOT allow for the rebuilding of the city and walls. Consequently they lodged an official complaint with the king.

Since all of these chapters are there, are quite explicit and quite detailed, I think that pushing a bogus 457 BCE theory is inexcusable and intentionally deceptive.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Can you quit bloviating and just state your case?
Actually I was waiting for you to do the same. You have thus far failed to disclose what camp you're in. The "457BC 70 weeks have been fulfilled" camp. Or the "445BC 69 weeks have been fulfilled camp."

So to end all further bloviating and unnecessary insulting down votes and irreverent irrelevant one-liners tell us what camp you are in.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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So to end all further bloviating and unnecessary insulting down votes and irreverent irrelevant one-liners tell us what camp you are in.
Because, after all, pigeonholing and marginalizing people is so much easier when they hand you the ammunition you need to do so. It sure beats having a respectful conversation any day.

At least, around here.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Actually I was waiting for you to do the same. You have thus far failed to disclose what camp you're in. The "457BC 70 weeks have been fulfilled" camp. Or the "445BC 69 weeks have been fulfilled camp."

So to end all further bloviating and unnecessary insulting down votes and irreverent irrelevant one-liners tell us what camp you are in.
Neither camp....it wasn't meant as an insult, I am sorry you took it so bad.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Actually I was waiting for you to do the same. You have thus far failed to disclose what camp you're in. The "457BC 70 weeks have been fulfilled" camp. Or the "445BC 69 weeks have been fulfilled camp."

So to end all further bloviating and unnecessary insulting down votes and irreverent irrelevant one-liners tell us what camp you are in.
And to be fair, if you don't like the thumbs down, ask the moderators to delete that option.

Re the camps - I understand the the 70 weeks was fulfilled when it was prophesied to be fulfilled. First century AD.