The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Man. I read all this, I understand exactly what it's saying, but I have to call it straight down the middle, kind of "outside the box", but roll with it and try to see it from my perspective. Look how much you have to "add to scripture" to get it to say what you "presuppose" it to say. I know you don't see it like that, and I'm not at all trying to be disrespectful at all, but let me make my argument here.
I have to post the whole thing to keep it in context.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the End of the Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
So just reading scripture without all the ADDED commentary we see His disciples of that day and time, the men He chose and was looking in the eyes and He tells them that this temple will be destroyed and not one stone will be left on another. They then ask Him right then and there "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Jesus then goes into what's about to happen and what they're about to face. He then goes into Dan. and scripture about the judgement on the covenant breakers, those that screamed "Let His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children, you know "that generation". He goes into the AoD, and then sums it up with the apocalyptic language that was commonly used to describe Gods judgement in way over dramatic type language. "the stars fall", "hearts melt in their chest", "universe is rolled up" that kind of thing. Same was used to describe the judgement of babylon.
Anyway He ends with a very clear statement, "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
To sum it up, this is my argument.- "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
Nothing added, not a huge page of added info that makes it mean something completely different than what it says. If I put myself in their time, sitting there after asking Jesus "when will all these things take place", and He looks me in the eyes and says "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
I would never in a million years come to the conclusion that He was talking about some far future generation. Not only that, everything Jesus said was going to happen, did. So if this bunch of parentheses, commentaries, and semicolons convinces you of the pre trib rapture, then awesome. That's where He has lead you to be, it's between you and God. I trust Him to lead you to truth just as I trust Him to lead me to truth. I think this kind of discussion helps and is good for both of us, but when people start attacking others faith and just being mocking and divisive, that's unproductive and I end up falling into this kind of "us vs. you" tribal mentality that's infested all life these days. Honestly probably been this way at all times when you think about it, but we as Christians are called to be one body. I honestly do not think this matter has anything to do with salvation and don't think it should cause the kind of ugliness it does on here most the time. Not between brothers and sisters.
I have to post the whole thing to keep it in context.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the End of the Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
So just reading scripture without all the ADDED commentary we see His disciples of that day and time, the men He chose and was looking in the eyes and He tells them that this temple will be destroyed and not one stone will be left on another. They then ask Him right then and there "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Jesus then goes into what's about to happen and what they're about to face. He then goes into Dan. and scripture about the judgement on the covenant breakers, those that screamed "Let His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children, you know "that generation". He goes into the AoD, and then sums it up with the apocalyptic language that was commonly used to describe Gods judgement in way over dramatic type language. "the stars fall", "hearts melt in their chest", "universe is rolled up" that kind of thing. Same was used to describe the judgement of babylon.
Anyway He ends with a very clear statement, "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
To sum it up, this is my argument.- "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
Nothing added, not a huge page of added info that makes it mean something completely different than what it says. If I put myself in their time, sitting there after asking Jesus "when will all these things take place", and He looks me in the eyes and says "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
I would never in a million years come to the conclusion that He was talking about some far future generation. Not only that, everything Jesus said was going to happen, did. So if this bunch of parentheses, commentaries, and semicolons convinces you of the pre trib rapture, then awesome. That's where He has lead you to be, it's between you and God. I trust Him to lead you to truth just as I trust Him to lead me to truth. I think this kind of discussion helps and is good for both of us, but when people start attacking others faith and just being mocking and divisive, that's unproductive and I end up falling into this kind of "us vs. you" tribal mentality that's infested all life these days. Honestly probably been this way at all times when you think about it, but we as Christians are called to be one body. I honestly do not think this matter has anything to do with salvation and don't think it should cause the kind of ugliness it does on here most the time. Not between brothers and sisters.
-
1
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Just to let you know I never use down-votes or red exes any longer. Simply too sniveling sneaky and cowardly for my temperament.
But you feel free to use them anytime you wish.....
But you feel free to use them anytime you wish.....
-
1
-
1
- Show all
The thing is.......some matters are open and worthy to debate and others are not. And, as in this case with 457BC being absurdly incorrect, and a veritable mountain of scripture speaking against it, you would hope that an honest soul would accept the facts as they truly are. IMO that's when it crosses the line to where someone is simply promulgating false doctrine.
For some reason people fail to understand as far as scripture is concerned, all points of view and all opinions are NOT equally true or equally valid. If you care to dispute this find out what Paul has to say about false doctrine. Or Peter or Jude or John.
I would postulate that the same thing can be said about prophecy per 2Pet 1:20. How does an erroneous view of duly constituted prophecy glorify God when it fails to comes to pass? Or when it's mangled beyond recognition and then set forth as the truth?
For some reason people fail to understand as far as scripture is concerned, all points of view and all opinions are NOT equally true or equally valid. If you care to dispute this find out what Paul has to say about false doctrine. Or Peter or Jude or John.
I would postulate that the same thing can be said about prophecy per 2Pet 1:20. How does an erroneous view of duly constituted prophecy glorify God when it fails to comes to pass? Or when it's mangled beyond recognition and then set forth as the truth?
Yes, it's very important, I would not disagree. Daniel's prophecies are complex, and the Masoretic and Greek actually can differ quite significantly. And I understand why you are so engaged, and i am sorry if I was flippant.
What I don't understand is how Artaxerxes can be dated to 465BC when the chapter concludes with King Darius, circa 530BC.
Re the wall, I don't see it specified in the initial prophecy.
What I don't understand is how Artaxerxes can be dated to 465BC when the chapter concludes with King Darius, circa 530BC.
Re the wall, I don't see it specified in the initial prophecy.
23 As soon as the copy of the letter of King Artaxerxes was read to Rehum and Shimshai the secretary and their associates, they went immediately to the Jews in Jerusalem and compelled them by force to stop.
24 Thus the work on the house of God in Jerusalem came to a standstill until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.
How many Artaxerxes are there?
Hi Jimbone.
All you need to do is diligently persistent in studying this admittedly complex topic. Give it time. God willing one of these days that lightbulb is going to go off in your head and you will have your very own eureka moment.
By the way........TheDivineWatermark is undoubtedly correct in this matter. Just to let you know I agree with everything he is stating with no dispute whatsoever.
As for me Scripture is like a 3D model (30 year engineering background). It is like an assembly, a series of patterns, of codes, of elements. One and only one assembly fits together perfectly! There are no missing pieces, no square pegs in round holes, and no leftover pieces.
And that "model" is the 69 weeks to TE/Church age "gap"/pre-trib rapture/70th week tribulation/Second Coming-premillennial-reconstitution of Israel iteration.
Nothing else even comes to this level of perfection because nothing else is correct!
All you need to do is diligently persistent in studying this admittedly complex topic. Give it time. God willing one of these days that lightbulb is going to go off in your head and you will have your very own eureka moment.
By the way........TheDivineWatermark is undoubtedly correct in this matter. Just to let you know I agree with everything he is stating with no dispute whatsoever.
As for me Scripture is like a 3D model (30 year engineering background). It is like an assembly, a series of patterns, of codes, of elements. One and only one assembly fits together perfectly! There are no missing pieces, no square pegs in round holes, and no leftover pieces.
And that "model" is the 69 weeks to TE/Church age "gap"/pre-trib rapture/70th week tribulation/Second Coming-premillennial-reconstitution of Israel iteration.
Nothing else even comes to this level of perfection because nothing else is correct!
Yep........dump the Masoretic. Rabbi Akiva did make changes. The Alexandrian LXX is the go-to text. However the Alexandrian DOES in fact have a serious error at Exodus 12:40, where the Alexandrian adds "and in Canaan". That's where the erroneous Jewish "short" 215 year sojourn derives from.
Furthermore the Masoretic has an erroneous "short" Genesis genealogy time span (Akiva just lopped off 100 years in the Genealogies)......among many other problems.
In Pauls day they had many CORRECT copies of the LXX. Which is why the 430 Years Sojourn in Egypt is amplified again and again in the New Testament.
Furthermore the Masoretic has an erroneous "short" Genesis genealogy time span (Akiva just lopped off 100 years in the Genealogies)......among many other problems.
In Pauls day they had many CORRECT copies of the LXX. Which is why the 430 Years Sojourn in Egypt is amplified again and again in the New Testament.
But this 457/445BC date is making no sense to me, whatsoever.
Mordecai and Esther virtually ran the Medo-Persian empire from around 475BC onwards,
and it seems inconceivable that Jerusalem was not a top priority for them.
Esther 10 King Xerxes imposed tribute throughout the empire, to its distant shores. 2 And all his acts of power and might, together with a full account of the greatness of Mordecai, whom the king had promoted, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Media and Persia? 3 Mordecai the Jew was second in rank to King Xerxes, preeminent among the Jews, and held in high esteem by his many fellow Jews, because he worked for the good of his people and spoke up for the welfare of all the Jews.
So it seems a bit odd if 20 years later Israel is in a mess; it also seems odd that if there was an issue, it wouldn't pass by Mordecai, and it seems odd that some 80 years after the exile we are talking about surviving it.
Nehemiah1:3 Those who survived the exile and are back in the province are in great trouble and disgrace
But anyhow - Nehemiah was an exile along with Ezra, and came back with Ezra. Why is he placed in the mid 450's BC?
Ezra 2 Now these are the people of the province who came up from the captivity of the exiles, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had taken captive to Babylon (they returned to Jerusalem and Judah, each to their own town, 2 in company with Zerubbabel, Joshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum and Baanah):
Nebuchadnezzar's reign ended around 565BC (from memory) - and his captivities ended 587BC latest (from memory). So how can Nehemiah reappear in 445BC?
??
Mordecai and Esther virtually ran the Medo-Persian empire from around 475BC onwards,
and it seems inconceivable that Jerusalem was not a top priority for them.
Esther 10 King Xerxes imposed tribute throughout the empire, to its distant shores. 2 And all his acts of power and might, together with a full account of the greatness of Mordecai, whom the king had promoted, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Media and Persia? 3 Mordecai the Jew was second in rank to King Xerxes, preeminent among the Jews, and held in high esteem by his many fellow Jews, because he worked for the good of his people and spoke up for the welfare of all the Jews.
So it seems a bit odd if 20 years later Israel is in a mess; it also seems odd that if there was an issue, it wouldn't pass by Mordecai, and it seems odd that some 80 years after the exile we are talking about surviving it.
Nehemiah1:3 Those who survived the exile and are back in the province are in great trouble and disgrace
But anyhow - Nehemiah was an exile along with Ezra, and came back with Ezra. Why is he placed in the mid 450's BC?
Ezra 2 Now these are the people of the province who came up from the captivity of the exiles, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had taken captive to Babylon (they returned to Jerusalem and Judah, each to their own town, 2 in company with Zerubbabel, Joshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum and Baanah):
Nebuchadnezzar's reign ended around 565BC (from memory) - and his captivities ended 587BC latest (from memory). So how can Nehemiah reappear in 445BC?
??
E
Why would you mention Nebuchadnezzar. He died long before The Medes and Persians defeated babylon. And captivity did not end until long after the medes and persians took over.
Artexerxes gave the command to restore the city in his 20th year as king. that is where the date comes from
Neh 2: 2 And it came to pass in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King [a]Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, that I took the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had never been sad in his presence before. 2 Therefore the king said to me, “Why is your face sad, since you are not sick? This is nothing but sorrow of heart.”
4 Then the king said to me, “What do you request?”
So I prayed to the God of heaven. 5 And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.”
If, as of everything i have looked at. Artexerxes started his reign in 465 BC. we ad 20 years and the month of Nisan.
The command to restore the city would have been in the month of Nisan 445 BC.
If we then do the math and count out 69 weeks from this time, We actually come to the date Jesus entered Jerusalem.
Remember On this date, Jesus mourned over jerusalem. He said if they only knew this time. But now it is hidden from them.
Using OT prophecy they should have known messiah the prince would come., riding the donkey. at the end of the 69th week.
Do you know Jews reject Daniel as scripture? This is one reason why. because 69 weeks came and went and messiah never came (in their mind) And rome ended. Yet Christ did not come (dan 2 and Dan 7)
it all fits like a glove if you look at it.
Artexerxes gave the command to restore the city in his 20th year as king. that is where the date comes from
Neh 2: 2 And it came to pass in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King [a]Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, that I took the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had never been sad in his presence before. 2 Therefore the king said to me, “Why is your face sad, since you are not sick? This is nothing but sorrow of heart.”
4 Then the king said to me, “What do you request?”
So I prayed to the God of heaven. 5 And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.”
If, as of everything i have looked at. Artexerxes started his reign in 465 BC. we ad 20 years and the month of Nisan.
The command to restore the city would have been in the month of Nisan 445 BC.
If we then do the math and count out 69 weeks from this time, We actually come to the date Jesus entered Jerusalem.
Remember On this date, Jesus mourned over jerusalem. He said if they only knew this time. But now it is hidden from them.
Using OT prophecy they should have known messiah the prince would come., riding the donkey. at the end of the 69th week.
Do you know Jews reject Daniel as scripture? This is one reason why. because 69 weeks came and went and messiah never came (in their mind) And rome ended. Yet Christ did not come (dan 2 and Dan 7)
it all fits like a glove if you look at it.