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Amen, Magenta . . .
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
- 2 Timothy 1:7-11 (NKJV)
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
- 2 Timothy 1:7-11 (NKJV)
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Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
- 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NKJV)
- 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NKJV)
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I am with MacArthur as regards the interpretation of 1Pet 3:18-20. Admittedly, I have understood this topic in this way from 25 year ago....however when I audition the alternatives they ALWAYS come up short. IMO, the text, context and the other Scriptural references are very specific and resilient. I do not see any Biblically accurate alternatives.
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/60-37/the-triumph-of-christs-suffering-part-2
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/60-37/the-triumph-of-christs-suffering-part-2
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Some key takeway points:
1) Now the point that Peter wants you to understand is this, that when Jesus was crucified on the cross His body died and His body went where? To the tomb. But when His body was dead, His spirit was what? Alive. Now the question is, where did He go, this living spirit? Well it tells us in verse 19. It says, "In which” that is in His spirit also “He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison." "In which also" means in that living spirit, apart from His body, which lay in the tomb, the living, eternal Christ went someplace. The verb here refers to a personal going. It's also used down in verse 22. It's translated "having gone." It's the same verb. It means literally to go somewhere else. So He went somewhere else.
2) Where did He go? Well it says He went, very clearly here, and made proclamation. He went and made proclamation. He gave a sermon. He went somewhere to preach. He went and gave a triumphant sermon. So even before His resurrection now, even before His resurrection on Sunday morning, He was moving freely in the spiritual realm, okay? And He went to...to preach. Now the verb here "to preach," or to make a proclamation, is not euaggeliz, to preach the gospel. He didn't go somewhere to preach salvation. It is the verb kruss, which means to make a proclamation or to announce a triumph. It is the word “to herald.”
1) Now the point that Peter wants you to understand is this, that when Jesus was crucified on the cross His body died and His body went where? To the tomb. But when His body was dead, His spirit was what? Alive. Now the question is, where did He go, this living spirit? Well it tells us in verse 19. It says, "In which” that is in His spirit also “He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison." "In which also" means in that living spirit, apart from His body, which lay in the tomb, the living, eternal Christ went someplace. The verb here refers to a personal going. It's also used down in verse 22. It's translated "having gone." It's the same verb. It means literally to go somewhere else. So He went somewhere else.
2) Where did He go? Well it says He went, very clearly here, and made proclamation. He went and made proclamation. He gave a sermon. He went somewhere to preach. He went and gave a triumphant sermon. So even before His resurrection now, even before His resurrection on Sunday morning, He was moving freely in the spiritual realm, okay? And He went to...to preach. Now the verb here "to preach," or to make a proclamation, is not euaggeliz, to preach the gospel. He didn't go somewhere to preach salvation. It is the verb kruss, which means to make a proclamation or to announce a triumph. It is the word “to herald.”
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More points...
3) "And where was this? It says in prison. Where is this place that He went? By the way, nowhere in Scripture are the souls of men ever said to be imprisoned. But these spirits are imprisoned. Phulak is the term and it is not, now listen carefully, it is not a condition, it is a location. It refers to an actual location, not some condition of being imprisoned in sin. It is a place. "
4) "Let me give you a characteristic of the loose ones. Luke chapter 8 verse 31, "And they were entreating Him,” these loose demons and their name was Legion, you remember they were in the demoniac,
and many, many demons had entered this man, they were all over the place in him, legion, "they were entreating Jesus not to command them to depart into the” what? “abussos,” the abyss. Please, Jesus, don't send us to the abyss, don't make us prisoners. They didn't want that.
In fact, in Matthew 8:29 they said to Jesus, "What do we have to do with You, Son of God, have You come here to torment us before the time?" Aren't You off schedule? What are You doing here now? Are you going to send us to that place now before the time?"
5) You say, "Well, when were they disobedient?" Well obviously they were free to roam around for a while but they were disobedient once. When was it? Verse 20, "When the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water." Oh, now we know when it was, it was during the time of what? Of Noah. So there is a prison filled with bound demons who have been there since the time of Noah and they were sent there because they overstepped even the bounds that God has established on their own wickedness. And it was during the time when Noah spent 120 years building an ark.
3) "And where was this? It says in prison. Where is this place that He went? By the way, nowhere in Scripture are the souls of men ever said to be imprisoned. But these spirits are imprisoned. Phulak is the term and it is not, now listen carefully, it is not a condition, it is a location. It refers to an actual location, not some condition of being imprisoned in sin. It is a place. "
4) "Let me give you a characteristic of the loose ones. Luke chapter 8 verse 31, "And they were entreating Him,” these loose demons and their name was Legion, you remember they were in the demoniac,
and many, many demons had entered this man, they were all over the place in him, legion, "they were entreating Jesus not to command them to depart into the” what? “abussos,” the abyss. Please, Jesus, don't send us to the abyss, don't make us prisoners. They didn't want that.
In fact, in Matthew 8:29 they said to Jesus, "What do we have to do with You, Son of God, have You come here to torment us before the time?" Aren't You off schedule? What are You doing here now? Are you going to send us to that place now before the time?"
5) You say, "Well, when were they disobedient?" Well obviously they were free to roam around for a while but they were disobedient once. When was it? Verse 20, "When the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water." Oh, now we know when it was, it was during the time of what? Of Noah. So there is a prison filled with bound demons who have been there since the time of Noah and they were sent there because they overstepped even the bounds that God has established on their own wickedness. And it was during the time when Noah spent 120 years building an ark.
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More points....
6) Turn to 2 Peter, chapter 2. Hold on to your seat here now. Second Peter chapter 2 verse 4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness reserved for judgment, and didn't spare the ancient world but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly."
7) the word "hell" would you notice that word in verse 4 is the word tartarsas or literally we could call it in an English transliteration Tartarus. Now Tartarus was a...a name in classical Greek mythology and they used it to describe the subterranean abyss in which rebellious gods were punished. The word was taken over into Judaism and it was used to refer to the prison of fallen angels. So, Peter in 2 Peter 2:4 is saying God took these angels who sinned and He put them in the murky abyss of fallen angels, the prison of spirits.
8) Jude 1:6 the term G3613 oiketerion is also used in ony ONE OTHER PLACE in 2 Cor 5:2. The fallen angels kept not their first heavenly habitation (BODY), while we Christians earnestly groan to put on our NEW HEAVENLY HABITATION (BODY).
9) Turn to Colossians chapter 2. I love this. What's the last word in verse 14? What is it? Last word in verse 14 of Colossians 2? “Cross,” OK, we're at the cross, that's what Paul's talking about. "At the cross when He” that is Christ “disarmed the rulers and authorities." Those are terms for demons. At the cross they thought they were triumphing, they were wrong. He disarmed them. And then it says, "He made a public” what? “display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." I believe Paul is referring to the same thing, that when Jesus body was dead, His spirit was alive and He went down where they were bound and He announced His triumph over them. So you have at the cross an unjust suffering; you have at the cross a terrible persecution, and in the midst of it all, a triumphant sin-bearing and a triumphant sermon. And Jesus in the midst of His suffering triumphs over sin and triumphs over Satan, hell, demons and death at the very same time. Isn't that a marvelous triumph?
6) Turn to 2 Peter, chapter 2. Hold on to your seat here now. Second Peter chapter 2 verse 4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness reserved for judgment, and didn't spare the ancient world but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly."
7) the word "hell" would you notice that word in verse 4 is the word tartarsas or literally we could call it in an English transliteration Tartarus. Now Tartarus was a...a name in classical Greek mythology and they used it to describe the subterranean abyss in which rebellious gods were punished. The word was taken over into Judaism and it was used to refer to the prison of fallen angels. So, Peter in 2 Peter 2:4 is saying God took these angels who sinned and He put them in the murky abyss of fallen angels, the prison of spirits.
8) Jude 1:6 the term G3613 oiketerion is also used in ony ONE OTHER PLACE in 2 Cor 5:2. The fallen angels kept not their first heavenly habitation (BODY), while we Christians earnestly groan to put on our NEW HEAVENLY HABITATION (BODY).
9) Turn to Colossians chapter 2. I love this. What's the last word in verse 14? What is it? Last word in verse 14 of Colossians 2? “Cross,” OK, we're at the cross, that's what Paul's talking about. "At the cross when He” that is Christ “disarmed the rulers and authorities." Those are terms for demons. At the cross they thought they were triumphing, they were wrong. He disarmed them. And then it says, "He made a public” what? “display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." I believe Paul is referring to the same thing, that when Jesus body was dead, His spirit was alive and He went down where they were bound and He announced His triumph over them. So you have at the cross an unjust suffering; you have at the cross a terrible persecution, and in the midst of it all, a triumphant sin-bearing and a triumphant sermon. And Jesus in the midst of His suffering triumphs over sin and triumphs over Satan, hell, demons and death at the very same time. Isn't that a marvelous triumph?
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Jude 6 and 2Cor 5:2 seals the deal IMO....
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3613/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3613/kjv/tr/0-1/
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We have quadruple redundancy here....more than enough to support doctrine.
We should consider that Peter undoubtedly had the benefit of the first hand information of Jesus Himself when he penned the relevant passages. Likely Jude as well. Genesis and the Pentateuch, written by Moses, is chock full of fallen (and not fallen) angel and Nephilim/giants passages. Far more than most people think.
Gen 6
Jude
1Pet 3
2Pet 2
We should consider that Peter undoubtedly had the benefit of the first hand information of Jesus Himself when he penned the relevant passages. Likely Jude as well. Genesis and the Pentateuch, written by Moses, is chock full of fallen (and not fallen) angel and Nephilim/giants passages. Far more than most people think.
Gen 6
Jude
1Pet 3
2Pet 2
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.
• Luke 16:26 . . Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed
The barrier between Abraham's side of the netherworld and the rich man's
is curious. The Greek word is located nowhere else in the entire New
Testament so we can't compare it's application in other situations.
Chasm isn't necessarily a crevasse like a gorge or a canyon. It can also
represent a marked division, separation, or difference; for example there is
a political chasm between China's communist party and China's regular
citizens.
A chasm then, can be likened to the contrast between good and evil, right
and wrong, wise and foolish, hate and love, the condemned and the
innocent, the one true God and the many fake gods, the alive to God and
the dead to God.
Anyway, this barrier in Luke's story isn't so expansive that people cannot
recognize familiar faces on the opposite side nor hear their voice. And if it's
a literal gulf, then I think it's reasonable to assume people have been trying
to jump in to get away from the flames.
The Bible says that God desires all men to be saved and that He derives no
pleasure from harming people. However, once folks are lost in the
netherworld, God's attitude towards them takes quite a turn. Folks in Hell
are dead to God, and apparently He wants them to be dead to us too; even
our loved ones and the BFFs for whom we care the most, i.e. fraternizing of
any kind with the other side is not allowed.
• Luke 16:26 . .Those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can
anyone cross over from there to us.
_
• Luke 16:26 . . Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed
The barrier between Abraham's side of the netherworld and the rich man's
is curious. The Greek word is located nowhere else in the entire New
Testament so we can't compare it's application in other situations.
Chasm isn't necessarily a crevasse like a gorge or a canyon. It can also
represent a marked division, separation, or difference; for example there is
a political chasm between China's communist party and China's regular
citizens.
A chasm then, can be likened to the contrast between good and evil, right
and wrong, wise and foolish, hate and love, the condemned and the
innocent, the one true God and the many fake gods, the alive to God and
the dead to God.
Anyway, this barrier in Luke's story isn't so expansive that people cannot
recognize familiar faces on the opposite side nor hear their voice. And if it's
a literal gulf, then I think it's reasonable to assume people have been trying
to jump in to get away from the flames.
The Bible says that God desires all men to be saved and that He derives no
pleasure from harming people. However, once folks are lost in the
netherworld, God's attitude towards them takes quite a turn. Folks in Hell
are dead to God, and apparently He wants them to be dead to us too; even
our loved ones and the BFFs for whom we care the most, i.e. fraternizing of
any kind with the other side is not allowed.
• Luke 16:26 . .Those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can
anyone cross over from there to us.
_
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That is an idea that predated Christianity, but did not come out of Judaism, though some ancient proponents of Judaism (including Philo, a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher) adopted some of the beliefs which originated in Greek philosophy from Socrates and Plato; they also believed in the transient reincarnation of the soul. Socrates was Plato's teacher. Plato started his own school called the Academy, and Aristotle was one of his many students. Aristotle was a teacher as well; he tutored Alexander the Great, until AtG was sixteen years old. Surely you know of AtG. By the time of his death, he was emperor over most regions of Greek culture and the conquered Persian Empire (including much of Egypt). His conquests included Anatolia, Syria, Phoenicia, Judea, Gaza, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia and Bactria. He extended the boundaries of his empire as far as Taxila, India (now Pakistan).
It remains a fact that Scripture teaches that life ever after is given only to those who eat from the Tree of Life.
In other words as I have already said: by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
It remains a fact that Scripture teaches that life ever after is given only to those who eat from the Tree of Life.
In other words as I have already said: by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
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I did not say the ToL was Jesus Christ. The literal tree in the garden of Eden was offered to Adam and Eve, who chose to disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead, from which came death. Following their disobedience, they were barred from the ToL. They did not have immortal souls, and we are born in Adam, until we are born again, which is when we submit our lives to Jesus Christ. We put on His righteousness, His incorruptibility, His immortality. Jesus is the true Vine. All those found outside of Him at the end of this age perish, which is clearly taught in Scripture.
Eve ate first, being deceived by the serpent, who told her she would not die (as God had said).
The lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is being repeated to this very.
Are you a Catholic? Your beliefs are very similar to what they believe.
I affirm the Divinity of Christ. You should already know that. Why ask such inane questions?
Eve ate first, being deceived by the serpent, who told her she would not die (as God had said).
The lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is being repeated to this very.
Are you a Catholic? Your beliefs are very similar to what they believe.
I affirm the Divinity of Christ. You should already know that. Why ask such inane questions?
Thank you for sharing.
Do you believe that Faith is first imputed and then we believe in Christ, or do we believe in Christ and then Faith is imputed? In my mind, I don't see how belief in Christ is possible until the Curse of the Lord has been separated from our Heart. Fundamentally, a Cursed person cannot believe. However, a person who has been separated from the Mind of Satan, the Sinful Nature, or whatever we want to call it, seems to be when genuine belief in Christ is made possible. Consider the passage (and concept) below:
Romans 8:7 NLT - "For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will."
However, the below passage indicates that the only way to remove the Veil (the Curse of the Lord), is by believing in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:14 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ."
How do we believe in Christ if the Curse of the Lord prevents that ability to believe?
Could any member of Israel understand the Truth that Moses was offering them when the Veil covered his face? It seems that the logical answer would be no, otherwise, the Veil would be useless. The Purpose of the Veil is to cause Spiritual Blindness so that the Truth is impossible to understand. Because of the Veil, the Truth of Moses could not be understood, nor did they have the choice to simply understand regardless of the raised Veil. For the Israelite's to understand the Truth of the Lord, the Veil (Curse of the Lord) must be removed as the Veil of Moses was removed.
Do you see my point?
What an amazing discussion.
Do you believe that Faith is first imputed and then we believe in Christ, or do we believe in Christ and then Faith is imputed? In my mind, I don't see how belief in Christ is possible until the Curse of the Lord has been separated from our Heart. Fundamentally, a Cursed person cannot believe. However, a person who has been separated from the Mind of Satan, the Sinful Nature, or whatever we want to call it, seems to be when genuine belief in Christ is made possible. Consider the passage (and concept) below:
Romans 8:7 NLT - "For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will."
However, the below passage indicates that the only way to remove the Veil (the Curse of the Lord), is by believing in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:14 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ."
How do we believe in Christ if the Curse of the Lord prevents that ability to believe?
Could any member of Israel understand the Truth that Moses was offering them when the Veil covered his face? It seems that the logical answer would be no, otherwise, the Veil would be useless. The Purpose of the Veil is to cause Spiritual Blindness so that the Truth is impossible to understand. Because of the Veil, the Truth of Moses could not be understood, nor did they have the choice to simply understand regardless of the raised Veil. For the Israelite's to understand the Truth of the Lord, the Veil (Curse of the Lord) must be removed as the Veil of Moses was removed.
Do you see my point?
What an amazing discussion.