Sheol

[John146]

1 Timothy 6:16a
He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.

Scripture says no such thing, and actually contradicts it, so why would I believe it?

Can you read the words you wrote? We receive life everlasting, we are not born with it, for we must be born again.

Scripture affirms this, while many deny it. First the physical, then the spiritual.

For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Those outside of Christ do not put on immortality through Christ.

Christ IS life. Without Him, they perish, as Scripture states in a multiplicity of ways.

So you believe in annihilation.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I believe the story is real. Hell is real. Eternal torment is real. Abraham’s bosom was a real place.

Precious friend, yes agree, but in this case for whatever reason, seems the red words of Jesus {most consider More Important}, are actually superseded by the OT words
that "the dead know NOTHING" (Ecc), in which case the literal Truth is TURNED into
figurative parable to "fit into the doctrine" they wish to promote to us.

 

[Magenta]

I thought you said only God is immortal?

Do you deny that Jesus Christ is God?

Do you deny John 3:16, and many other verses that tell us our life is in Him???

That life itself is in Him alone? Do you not understand the gospel?

 

[John146]

Do you deny that Jesus Christ is God?

Do you deny John 3:16, and many other verses that tell us our life is in Him???

That life itself is in Him alone? Do you not understand the gospel?

Come on Magenta. You know better than that. Yes, I have eternal life because of Christ. God is not the only one that is immortal. I will spend eternity in an immortal body.

 

[Gideon300]

Gideon, thank you for your offering. I duly appreciate it.

What would you say if I told you that it seems that when Christ Circumcises a heart, that is when the Mind of Christ begins, and it is in this moment that a person is given the Ability to Repent.

Can a person Repent before Spiritual Circumcision?

Thank you for your thoughts on this . . . I really think that this group is getting somewhere. We are discussing things I've never heard discussed anywhere and I am extremely hopeful that perhaps the Lord is bringing His Children together so that by this "gathering," we will be a demonstration of the Power of God.

It is so important that we get along, and if we can all do that . . . again, it seems to be a Powerful Work of God.

Much respect to all of you . . .

I wish there was a simple answer. From man's point of view, it is that he has free will to accept or reject the gospel. No one knows who will be saved and who will not except God Himself. God's word has tremendous power. Through the work of the Holy Spirit and with the Word of God, which is the sword of the Spirit, sinners can be convicted of their sin and also come to know that Lord Jesus alone can save them.

God chooses to save through His Word. He created the universe through His Word. Obviously, God's Word is a reflection of who God is. Christians sure need a better revelation of the power of God's Word. We need to remember that Lord Jesus did not just preach God's Word, He IS God's Word!

From God's point of view, we are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Are we predestined because God knew that we would accept Christ before we were even born? I don't know. I dare not say that there is no need to witness because God is going to save people anyway.

I think we need to keep it simple. Farms were different in Jesus' time. They were not the huge, fenced off lands that are common today. There were paths through the fields and no bulldozers to clear away rocky areas. The sower's job is to sow. The seed has life within it but it needs the right conditions to sprout and become deeply rooted. The sower is not responsible for the state of the soil.

Often, people hear the gospel a number of times before the "seed" takes root. The other need for growth is water. So we need also to preach the Word even if there seems to be no response. We don't know if someone else will water the seed that we've sown. I spent hours witnessing to my sister, many years ago. (She lives in New Zealand) She seemed unmoved. Yet she said later that the word burned within her. A year later, she went to a meeting where she accepted Christ.

When it comes to getting along, we need to know that it's the unity of the Spirit that matters. Unity of doctrine is not the ultimate and is probably unachievable in this life! We can and should agree to disagree on matters that are not central to salvation.

 

[Magenta]

Come on Magenta. You know better than that. Yes, I have eternal life because of Christ. God is not the only one that is immortal. I will spend eternity in an immortal body.

So should you know better than to ask what you did.

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,
being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 1:28 and 3:18-19 teach that non-believers will be destroyed.
Nevertheless, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.
Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will
know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending side by side for the faith of
the gospel, without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you.
This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears:
Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction...

2 Thessalonians 2:10
“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”


Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he
preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell?
No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly
by Jesus; that all men would be judged according to his gospel; that he had declared to people
the whole counsel of God; that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught; and
that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word
"Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't think that's so much a physical location, so much as a spiritual one that transcends the physical

According to Christ and the apostles Sheol/Hades is very definitely a physical location "in the heart of the earth" or "the lower parts of the earth". Meaning not too far from the core of the earth. We need not spiritualize the abode of departed souls and spirits.

Before the resurrection of Christ there were two sections or compartment in Sheol/Hades (incorrectly called "the grave" in the KJB). One section was for the righteous dead (called "Abraham's Bosom"), the other for the unrighteous dead, with a very wide chasm (or gulf) between the two. There was no crossing over from one section to the other.

Christ visited Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights, and proclaimed His victory to all the spirits in prison (while His body lay in the tomb). Following His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints in Sheol/Hades directly to Heaven (the New Jerusalem) where they are now "the spirits of just men made perfect".

Samuel is mentioned among the saints who were already justified by grace through faith (Heb 11:32,33) and are now in Heaven ...And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions...

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Many believe in the fantasy that Jonah was alive in that sea creature, but crying out from Sheol makes him dead.

Right . . . and right! I was one of those kids that grew up thinking that God was just so amazing that He kept Jonah alive and well within the whale. I used to think and say that if I were an atheist that loved to debate, I'd throw this idea of a living Jonah in their face. But the text just doesn't allow for such thinking, particularly if we are to claim that we have a reasonable and rational God. The Sheol translation swung the door wide open to that exact reasonable and rational Faith.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The huge difference is whose faith? We are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. His work on the cross justifies the believer. In the OT, they lived by their own faith. The faith of Christ was not yet available until after the cross.

Do you feel that Hewbrews 11 is reflective of the kind of Faith that we are to have today?

I love the translation below, regarding genuine Faith (that points to Abraham). Your thoughts?

Romans 4:11-13 NLT - "Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised. Clearly, God's promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God's law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith."

Ephesians 4:5 KJV - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism . . ."

I'm not sure how I could get around Eph 4:5. Do you really believe there are two different kinds of Faith?

Thanks!!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

First of all, it wasn’t Samuel at all! Even though Saul knows that it was an evil spirit that she saw, he still wants to know what it was. Saul wants the identity of the man; yet she is seeing a spirit manifestation (“gods" appearing before her). If you were in Saul’s place and you saw this spirit standing before you that looked like Samuel, spoke like Samuel and even wore the robe of a prophet, would you think also that it was Samuel come to you? This is what "Saul perceived" even though it was an evil spirit of Satan. Saul was deceived, and thus acted on the very message that Satan gave him through this evil spirit.

I hear you. However, I'd probably need to sit down and work through this with you. I'm not sure that I can wrap my mind around it through simple text.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Samuel was right with God while he was serving God on earth. Thus we have the two books of Samuel (1 book in Hebrew).

I am not sure whether you are "wrong" or simply confused.

I am receiving this perspective from the below Scripture:

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."

That's a pretty amazing concept.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

By my understanding, "the grave"/"death" is what happens to/ where your body ends up. Hades/Sheol is where your soul would go to "in the heart of the earth". I don't think that's so much a physical location, so much as a spiritual one that transcends the physical- I don't know how that's provable, but it makes sense to me. OT saints weren't able to go directly into the presence of God, because Jesus didn't do his thing yet- so they got to hang out in a more pleasant quarter of the underworld.

This is a very thoughtful, insightful commentary. And, it makes sense to me as well. I like the way you think.

 

[Magenta]

Come on Magenta. You know better than that. Yes, I have eternal life because of Christ. God is not the only one that is immortal. I will spend eternity in an immortal body.

You contradict Scripture, and even yourself.

One day you will receive an immortal never dying body?

I am in Christ... right now. Was I born immortal? No, I was not, nor anybody else born in Adam.

We put on immortality through Christ alone.

Why do people deny this?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I wish there was a simple answer. From man's point of view, it is that he has free will to accept or reject the gospel. No one knows who will be saved and who will not except God Himself. God's word has tremendous power. Through the work of the Holy Spirit and with the Word of God, which is the sword of the Spirit, sinners can be convicted of their sin and also come to know that Lord Jesus alone can save them.

God chooses to save through His Word. He created the universe through His Word. Obviously, God's Word is a reflection of who God is. Christians sure need a better revelation of the power of God's Word. We need to remember that Lord Jesus did not just preach God's Word, He IS God's Word!

From God's point of view, we are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Are we predestined because God knew that we would accept Christ before we were even born? I don't know. I dare not say that there is no need to witness because God is going to save people anyway.

I think we need to keep it simple. Farms were different in Jesus' time. They were not the huge, fenced off lands that are common today. There were paths through the fields and no bulldozers to clear away rocky areas. The sower's job is to sow. The seed has life within it but it needs the right conditions to sprout and become deeply rooted. The sower is not responsible for the state of the soil.

Often, people hear the gospel a number of times before the "seed" takes root. The other need for growth is water. So we need also to preach the Word even if there seems to be no response. We don't know if someone else will water the seed that we've sown. I spent hours witnessing to my sister, many years ago. (She lives in New Zealand) She seemed unmoved. Yet she said later that the word burned within her. A year later, she went to a meeting where she accepted Christ.

When it comes to getting along, we need to know that it's the unity of the Spirit that matters. Unity of doctrine is not the ultimate and is probably unachievable in this life! We can and should agree to disagree on matters that are not central to salvation.

Thank you, Gideon. I appreciated reading all that you wrote. Respect . . .

 

[SteveEpperson]

Christ visited Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights, and proclaimed His victory to all the spirits in prison (while His body lay in the tomb).

Do you have a scriptural reference for this? Thanks in advance.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Do you have a scriptural reference for this? Thanks in advance.

Hey Steve . . . welcome!

I'd recommend reading the posts from folks other than myself (in this thread.) These friends have offered up some incredible ideas, if not facts, regarding your request. Because of what these people have written, I'd have to say this is the coolest thread I've ever seen (not because of me, but because of them and their Holy Understanding, Knowlege, and Wisdom).

Enjoy!

 

[Diakonos]

I'm not really getting involved at the moment. I'm just providing references. I'll do my best to synthesize clearly.

Christ visited Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights, and proclaimed His victory to all the spirits in prison (while His body lay in the tomb).

Do you have a scriptural reference for this? Thanks in advance.

(David speaking) “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.” (Psalm 16:10)

“David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ: 'You will not abandon my soul to Hades' (Acts 2:31) (Jesus didn't leave him there...since sin was finally paid for, the OT saints could be gathered from their waiting place (Abraham's bosom. That's the whole purpose of Hades/Sheol, it's the waiting place for judgment. NT saints don't have to wait there because our sins have been judged on the cross of Christ. But the wicked still go there to wait for the great white throne judgment (Rev 20).

“He (Jesus) descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Ephesians 4:9)

“For Christ also died for sins once for all...in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,” ... "making a public display of them, having triumphed over them” (1 Peter 3:18–19, Colossians 2:15)

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I'm not really getting involved at the moment. I'm just providing references. I'll do my best to synthesize clearly.


(David speaking) “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.” (Psalm 16:10)

“David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ: 'You will not abandon my soul to Hades' (Acts 2:31) (Jesus didn't leave him there...since sin was finally paid for, the OT saints could be gathered from their waiting place (Abraham's bosom. That's the whole purpose of Hades/Sheol, it's the waiting place for judgment. NT saints don't have to wait there because our sins have been judged on the cross of Christ. But the wicked still go there to wait for the great white throne judgment (Rev 20).

“He (Jesus) descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Ephesians 4:9)

“For Christ also died for sins once for all...in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,” ... "making a public display of them, having triumphed over them” (1 Peter 3:18–19, Colossians 2:15)

I love what you wrote. Your strong conclusions confirm the light conclusions that I previously had. Thanks to you all, this concept is coming together. Superb, combined efforts!

 

[John146]

So should you know better than to ask what you did.

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,
being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 1:28 and 3:18-19 teach that non-believers will be destroyed.
Nevertheless, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.
Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will
know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending side by side for the faith of
the gospel, without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you.
This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears:
Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction...

2 Thessalonians 2:10
“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”


Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he
preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell?
No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly
by Jesus; that all men would be judged according to his gospel; that he had declared to people
the whole counsel of God; that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught; and
that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word
"Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Destruction never means annihilation. And 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about the death of the body and how one day we will gain victory over that death with immortal bodies.

 

[John146]

Do you feel that Hewbrews 11 is reflective of the kind of Faith that we are to have today?

I love the translation below, regarding genuine Faith (that points to Abraham). Your thoughts?

Romans 4:11-13 NLT - "Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised. Clearly, God's promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God's law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith."

Ephesians 4:5 KJV - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism . . ."

I'm not sure how I could get around Eph 4:5. Do you really believe there are two different kinds of Faith?

Thanks!!

I don’t believe that there are two kinds of faith, rather whose faith justifies? Faith is demonstrated through works. Only the faith of Jesus Christ can justify because He did all the work unto salvation. We are to believe upon His testimony and His faith will be imputed to us as righteousness.