Rapture

PlainWord · Aug 20, 2018

No need for me to re-invent the wheel. Give this a read all you futurists:

Written by Jerry William Bowers Jr Thursday, December 14, 2017

This verse:

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

Deuteronomy 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

This "vengeance" is very specific in many areas of scripture.

So again;

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

And where was this "blood of his servants" to be avenged?

Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

Whom is the subject (Audience Relevance)?

Only 2 verses later:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you would not!

Also spoken to/of in Revelation 18:24 (Also shown in Revelation 6:10, 16:6, 17:6)

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

And when was this supposed to happen?

Back up 1 verse

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Just as he told Peter, James, John and Andrew, in the Olivet Discourse (In the very next 2 chapters) in

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And the "Latter Days" are about whom?

Mankind?

Deuteronomy 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Who is the "their" in that verse?

This entire chapter speaks to Israel's crossing over into the "Promised Land"; all the way up to "their latter end"; which is reemphasized in verse 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Remember this "froward generation" phrase:

Deuteronomy 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Here also referred to as a "perverse and crooked generation"

Sounds a lot like

Philippians 2:15 That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world;

And even Christ himself points to this, in speaking to those in the 1st century:

Matthew 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?

And remember, we started this with

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Read Deuteronomy 32, read all of it, read it several times over; this is entirely about some "end" that would occur to/with "Israel" in her "Latter Days" and her "End" and "Latter End".

This is never more clear, than what we see in a parable that Jesus spoke on, inside that temple, before they went over to the Mount of Olives:

Matthew 21:33-45 "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and dug a wine-press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants (Prophets) to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants (Prophets - Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc...) and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants (Prophets) more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son (Jesus), saying, They will reverence my son (Jesus). But when the husbandmen saw the son (Jesus), they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard (took him to Golgotha), and killed (Crucified) him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes (His Coming/Return), what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived (understood) that he was speaking of them"

They got it; why don't you?

Again I reason with you:

Read Deuteronomy 32, read all of it, read it several times over; this is entirely about some "end" that would occur to/with "Israel" in her "Latter Days" and her "End" and "Latter End".

This all bleeds into a much larger narrative that invites all mankind into covenant with God, but there's no good reason to take this historical surface story, and insist it must yet actually, literally and visibly, play out, upon a people, to whom it never speaks to.

One last thing to add:

Within the Luke account of the Olivet Discourse; in addition to his parallel (Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled - Luke 21:32) reference to the Matthew 24:24 (Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things are fulfilled) reference; in addition to this imminent admonition, only 9 verses earlier ( For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written will be fulfilled. - Luke 21:22)

Christ unequivocally states that they were in the days when this vengeance would be carried out.

PlainWord · Aug 20, 2018

Noose said:

Do I have to help you with basic reading comprehension?

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Where do you see anything about a desecration? I see a destruction.

BTW, how many weeks are you adding from 33 AD? 283 and counting if my math is right.

Noose · Aug 20, 2018

PlainWord said:

Are you blind?

Matt 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those in Judea flee to the mountains.

When did Daniel say the abomination would happen? 70AD?!

I have not added anything yet and i'm not going to add anything or reduce to fit a narrative- i don't do that.

Yahshua · Aug 20, 2018

PlainWord said:

No need for me to re-invent the wheel. Give this a read all you futurists:

Written by Jerry William Bowers Jr Thursday, December 14, 2017

This verse:

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

Deuteronomy 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

This "vengeance" is very specific in many areas of scripture.

So again;

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

And where was this "blood of his servants" to be avenged?

Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

Whom is the subject (Audience Relevance)?

Only 2 verses later:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you would not!

Also spoken to/of in Revelation 18:24 (Also shown in Revelation 6:10, 16:6, 17:6)

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

And when was this supposed to happen?

Back up 1 verse

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Just as he told Peter, James, John and Andrew, in the Olivet Discourse (In the very next 2 chapters) in

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And the "Latter Days" are about whom?

Mankind?

Deuteronomy 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Who is the "their" in that verse?

This entire chapter speaks to Israel's crossing over into the "Promised Land"; all the way up to "their latter end"; which is reemphasized in verse 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Remember this "froward generation" phrase:

Deuteronomy 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Here also referred to as a "perverse and crooked generation"

Sounds a lot like

Philippians 2:15 That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world;

And even Christ himself points to this, in speaking to those in the 1st century:

Matthew 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?

And remember, we started this with

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Read Deuteronomy 32, read all of it, read it several times over; this is entirely about some "end" that would occur to/with "Israel" in her "Latter Days" and her "End" and "Latter End".

This is never more clear, than what we see in a parable that Jesus spoke on, inside that temple, before they went over to the Mount of Olives:

Matthew 21:33-45 "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and dug a wine-press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants (Prophets) to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants (Prophets - Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc...) and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants (Prophets) more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son (Jesus), saying, They will reverence my son (Jesus). But when the husbandmen saw the son (Jesus), they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard (took him to Golgotha), and killed (Crucified) him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes (His Coming/Return), what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived (understood) that he was speaking of them"

They got it; why don't you?

Again I reason with you:

Read Deuteronomy 32, read all of it, read it several times over; this is entirely about some "end" that would occur to/with "Israel" in her "Latter Days" and her "End" and "Latter End".

This all bleeds into a much larger narrative that invites all mankind into covenant with God, but there's no good reason to take this historical surface story, and insist it must yet actually, literally and visibly, play out, upon a people, to whom it never speaks to.

One last thing to add:

Within the Luke account of the Olivet Discourse; in addition to his parallel (Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled - Luke 21:32) reference to the Matthew 24:24 (Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things are fulfilled) reference; in addition to this imminent admonition, only 9 verses earlier ( For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written will be fulfilled. - Luke 21:22)

Christ unequivocally states that they were in the days when this vengeance would be carried out.

PlainWord, I agree with some of your points but not with others as I'm neither preterist or futurist. I believe Christ outlined everything that would happen since he left until when he'd return - point by point; that prophecy has been concurrent with the events of human history for nearly 2000 years up to this moment. But I'm curious...

Based on your understanding of events, when did the following passage happen if Christ came and Revelation 19 occurred in 70 AD?

Isaiah 2:4 ?
And he [Christ] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

History has shown that war has only increased since 70AD and has never stopped, but right after Revelation 19 comes chapter 20 when satan is bound from deceiving the nations for 1000 years while the saints reign with Christ. Clearly there's still been violence and deception in the world for over 1900 years.

Also, do you subscribe to passages like Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8? I noticed you commented on 2000 years not being a "short time".

Yahshua · Aug 20, 2018

I just found this outline which explains the Catholic origins of both preterism and futurism. I haven't read the rest of the website so I can't vouch for any other doctrine on the site but I do agree with this page. I guess I would be considered a "historist" in my interpretation.

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism (link)

-----Begin Excerpts-----

...The inevitable conclusion of those who studied these prophesies in scripture, before and during the Protestant Reformation, was that there was only one entity that fit all the above [antichrist] characteristics: the papal dynasty of the Roman Catholic Church. Is it any wonder that the Catholic Church was so violently opposed to the scriptures being available for everyone to read for themselves? There was such a stir created during the reformation that the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-17 A.D.) resorted to strictly forbidding anyone to publish a book without prior censorship, and also prohibited anyone from preaching on the subject of antichrist...

...But the Catholic Church eventually came to the conclusion that it would not be able to ban or burn all the Bibles, heretical books, and heretics that possessed or preached from them. This oppressive and crude tactic merely confirmed their identification as the harlot persecuting church of prophecy. A new and more subtle approach was needed in order to effectively counter the application of apocalyptic prophecy to the Catholic Church.

One major identifying characteristic the Catholic Church needed to deal with was the time period of 1260 years that the antichrist power was to rule, according to Protestantism's Historicist interpretation. There simply is only one entity on earth that has ruled for this length of time after the fall of pagan Rome, and that is the Roman Catholic Church (See also Time, Times, and Half a Time? and The Red Dragon and Rome)...

Strategy 1: Futurism

1) Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590...In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

- Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
- Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
- Abolish the Christian religion.
- Deny Jesus Christ.
- Be received by the Jews.
- Pretend to be God.
- Kill the two witnesses of God.
- Conquer the world.

2) Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis hireticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years.

3) Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism...

4) Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English...

5) Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish girl, and member of Edward Irving's congregation, had visions in early 1830 that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. She informed Irving of her visions by letter. Irving then attended the prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle, where he promoted both Futurism and a Secret Rapture...

6) Samuel Roffey Maitland (1792-1866)...promoted...futurism...after reading Manuel De Lacunza...

7) John Nelson Darby (1800–1882)...

8) Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible.

(The rest is history...)

---

Strategy 2: Preterism

1) Another counter-interpretation to the Historicism held by Protestantism was proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who also wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that it all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):

- Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

- Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.

- Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54-68 A.D.), and judgment.

- Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, Alcazar found no application of prophecy to the middle ages or to the papacy. That his interpretation differed so greatly from that put forth by Francisco Ribera or Cardinal Bellarmine, mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the reformers.

-----End Excerpts-----

So both interpretations were developed by Roman Catholicism to divert attention from themselves being seen as the antichrist beast (from the sea) and great harlot church.

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 20, 2018

It is this very point which makes distinguishing between "the DAY of vengeance" and "the DAYS of vengeance" imperative.

[I don't have time at the moment to give further explanation, but I did hint at this in previous posts in the (several) scripture references I had supplied]

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 20, 2018

...along with the SEQUENCE I'd provided in my post #335, for the time being, here are a few more along with those: Isa34:8 (chpts34-35 whole); 61:2; Jer46:10 (Lk17:26-18:8 "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [Rev1:1/22:6 (re: the 4:1+ "things"); Rom16:20, etc] )"; Lk21:21-24

Back later tonight, hopefully

DudleyDorite · Aug 20, 2018

Yahshua said,...in blue,

- Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.

Islam does that on a daily basis. Catholicism no longer persecutes people and haven't for centuries.

- Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
There's no scripture stating a temple needs to be rebuilt, and it's not on any Catholic agenda to do so.

- Abolish the Christian religion.
That's a stated goal of Islam. In fact ISIS believes that the "Muslim jesus" will return to help them defeat the dajjal/Muslim anti-Christ.

- Deny Jesus Christ.
Catholic's do not deny Jesus. Islam does. In fact, around the octagonal structure of the Dome of the Rock is a long classical Arabic inscription that says that God has no begotten son, thus denying that Jesus is the Son of God. That's the definition of anti-Christ.

- Be received by the Jews.
That's not true. Jews will not accept the man of sin. That's a misinterpretation of John 5, Daniel 11, and 2Thes. 2.
- Pretend to be God.
That would be Islam again. The Mahdi!

- Kill the two witnesses of God.
The two witnesses will be witnessing to Muslim's and murdered in the courtyard of the Dome of the Rock.

- Conquer the world.
That ones easy...

DudleyDorite · Aug 20, 2018

PlainWord said:

I thought you were a historian?

You are a typical Preterist in a fit of fabrication and denial. In Mathew 24 Jesus was responding to the question about the END i.e. the consummation of the age. Paul was responding to people like you, the misled Thessalonians.

I noticed you didn't confront this verse...

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

DUDE...the gospel is still being preached!

I've heard all the foolishness you've posted before from other Preterist who deny God's Prophetic Word, and it's quite amusing to hear the ridiculous answers you guys have fabricated.

Earthquakes and pestilence continued after 70AD. Anybody with minimal education should be able to figure out that the generation Jesus is talking about is the one that sees all the events he mentions beginning with verse 3. NOT the generation he's talking to. Like the abomination, the tribulation, the anti-Christ, etc.

God's Word didn't leave out the most advanced days of mankind. Days of nuclear weapons etc.

Don't let the pruninghooks fool you. Man is still learning how to make war and we've become pretty advanced at it.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The Preterist view is that Nero is the anti-Christ, correct?

Preterist didn't do a good job of changing the dates of 1 John like they did Revelation and Mathew. 1st John debunks Preterisn, AND NERO, as the biblical anti-Christ....

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that (THE) antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The word THE was omitted in some translations. The interlinear proves the word THE is in the original text. The first word ANTI-CHRIST in 1 John 2:18 has the word THE before it and is SINGULAR. The second word anti-Christ is plural.

It was written in the later part of the first century between 85 and 95 AD, The earliest some Preterist have the book dated is 68AD. NERO died in 68AD! The Preterist anti-Christ DIED when 1 John was written. The correct date is more like 85-90AD! Nero only lived to be 30 1/2 years old and died in June of 68 AD. That too poses several contradictions for Preterism since the temple was destroyed in 70 AD! So, since 1st John says, "THE ANTI-CHRIST" is COMING, that alone debunks Nero AND PRETERISM since it was written some 20-25 years AFTER NERO DIED! EVEN IF the Preterist date of 68AD were correct, how much sense does it make to write an epistle saying the anti-Christ is coming only to have him die that same year?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This is how it's written in the Greek Interlinear...and it doesn't matter if John wrote it or not....
Little-boys-and-girls LAST HOUR it-IS AND according-AS YE-HEAR that THE INSTEAD-ANOINTED IS COMING AND NOW INSTEAD-ANOINTEDS MANY HAVE-BECOME WHICH PLACE WE-ARE-KNOWING that LAST HOUR it-IS.

Preterism...what a joke!

DudleyDorite · Aug 20, 2018

The Ephah

Zechariah 5: 6-10 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it. I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, ˜Look up and see what this is that is appearing. I asked ˜What is it? He replied It is a measuring basket. And he added, ˜This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land. Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! He said,This is wickedness and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. Then I looked up-and there before me were two women with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. ˜Where are they taking the basket? I asked the angel who was speaking to me. He replied, To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set in its place.

The word for Basket is 'ephah' which is a container over 30 feet in length and nearly 5 feet in diameter.
Now as to the woman in the basket, the word for woman in Hebrew is Isha. According to
the angel the woman in the ephah is "wickedness." Well it doesn't make any sense until you see that the word "woman" is a mistranslation.

It is not a woman that is in the ephah but a fire. Same in verse nine. There are not two
women but two fires.

The word for fire offering is Aisha. It has the same consonants as Isha. For centuries the Hebrew manuscripts came from a Karaite Mesorah (recieved text) and there was a hirik (dot) underneath the letter aleph, the same letter for both Isha and Aisha. It is in every Hebrew text I own. The context must be employed to makes sense of it all.

This is the wickedness. It is an evil fire offering (aisha).

What is the significance of the lead cover? Well in nuclear missile, noncritical masses of
Uranium-235 is encased in lead, is it not?

Is this is a possible nuclear device being discussed in this passage?

Look up at the first few verses of chapter 5. We have a flying "roll" or megillah in Hebrew. That means it is something that is cylindrical in shape. It is flying. It is 20 cubits by 10 cubits. The same dimensions as the ephah. It is a curse that effects the whole earth. Earth is rendered eretz. Could it be a reference to Israel? It is common parlance among Jews to refer to Israel as simply "the Land." It consumes houses, stones, and timbers. It quite destructive, obviously.

The two fires could be a reference to a two stage nuclear blast! Not sure on that one. My understanding of the science of nuclear weapons is woefully limited.
This might be a nuclear war or something,

PlainWord · Aug 21, 2018

Noose said:

Still struggling Noose? Let's break this phrase, Abomination of Desolation, into two:

Abomination -

anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.
a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.

Desolation -

an act or instance of desolating.
the state of being desolated.
devastation; ruin.

Neither of these terms equates to desecration -

to divest of sacred or hallowed character or office.
to divert from a sacred to a profane use or purpose.
to treat with sacrilege; profane.

Nothing was being desecrated per se, it was however destroyed. We don't have to wonder who or what the Abomination of Desolation was because Luke tells us in his companion passage:

Luke 21: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Mat 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...

Therefore:

Abomination of Desolation = Armies which surrounded Jerusalem (in 70 AD)

A foreign army on Jewish soil is an abomination. From the time Jesus spoke in the Olivet Discourse, when was the next time that Jerusalem was left desolate? 70 AD. This agrees with Daniel 9:

...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who made Jerusalem desolate? Titus
How did he make Jerusalem desolate? Fire (consummation)

The 70 weeks concluded long before 70 AD as the destruction of Israel was not mentioned in the list of things told Daniel.

Noose · Aug 21, 2018

PlainWord said:

Still struggling Noose? Let's break this phrase, Abomination of Desolation, into two:

Abomination -

anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.
a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.

Desolation -

an act or instance of desolating.
the state of being desolated.
devastation; ruin.

Neither of these terms equates to desecration -

to divest of sacred or hallowed character or office.
to divert from a sacred to a profane use or purpose.
to treat with sacrilege; profane.

Nothing was being desecrated per se, it was however destroyed. We don't have to wonder who or what the Abomination of Desolation was because Luke tells us in his companion passage:

Luke 21: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Mat 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...

Therefore:

Abomination of Desolation = Armies which surrounded Jerusalem (in 70 AD)

A foreign army on Jewish soil is an abomination. From the time Jesus spoke in the Olivet Discourse, when was the next time that Jerusalem was left desolate? 70 AD. This agrees with Daniel 9:

...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who made Jerusalem desolate? Titus
How did he make Jerusalem desolate? Fire (consummation)

The 70 weeks concluded long before 70 AD as the destruction of Israel was not mentioned in the list of things told Daniel.

Do you have a comprehension problem?
I asked you a simple question, when did Daniel say the abomination would happen?

A. 5weeks after the 70th week aka 70AD
B. In the middle of the 70th week
C. None of the above

(10 marks)

PlainWord · Aug 21, 2018

Dud,

The age ended in 70 AD. Don't you understand this? Christ's presence returned to destroy wicked Israel and set the captives in Hades free so that they could reign with Him now in the spiritual realm. We are in a new age, the old age, AKA the Law or Mosaic Age passed when the temple was destroyed. The old way passed. We now have a totally new way and have been restored to the Father. No longer is Israel God's method of relating to the people. He now relates through the church - all believers. You need to wrap your head around this.

I've addressed this repeatedly and will again. The gospel was preached to the whole known earth and the end came. Yes, the gospel is still being preached. Notice the passage doesn't say the gospel stops being preached? It merely says once it's been preached the end comes.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister...

You should really read this whole passage.

Honestly, I need to stop responding to you because you are so lost in your biases and traditions of man for the Word to speak to you in these matters. You are a complete waste of time.

PlainWord · Aug 21, 2018

Noose said:

C

Daniel does not provide a date or time for the abomination of desolation as it was outside the 70 weeks. The punishment for Israel is not part of the 70 weeks. You need to read what the 70 weeks were about.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel's people, the Jewish nation, were granted 490 years to accomplish the things listed above. The subsequent desolation is not part of the above list. The pending desolation is mentioned as the curse which followed. This curse was first mentioned in Deu 28 as Israel and Judea were told how their end would come. 70 AD events exactly match the below:

58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God;

59 Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.

61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.

63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

Noose · Aug 21, 2018

PlainWord said:

Dan 9: 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

Self explanatory.

Absolutely · Aug 21, 2018

FirstLovedByHim said:

They obviously believe in a pretrib or midtrib Rapture.

MY RESPONSE:

Most correctly is..... those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching/ or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire- the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach (THE SHEPHERDESS PORTION) and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet today, only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. The Rev.7 portion are sealed through the Rachel portion. They are those who convert to Christianity through(The Shepherdess portion of the Church) and though part of the Bride they are only so through being the Brides offspring Rev12:17 . They will be martyred. They are like Christ in that fact, the Bride-like Mother Mary. Those who have died prior to this end of the age church who are Christians but not martyred, are part of the second resurrection. We the last generation- " The first shall be last and the Last shall be of the first fruits".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the end of the age Beast System and those who were martyred by the same evil system throughout history. For they too were martyred by a beast system of prior times. My point: it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections.
If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection too because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THIS BEAST SYSTEM ERA) . The Rev. is geared to an end time Elect. Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ. That does not mean that souls who were martyred in prior Christian history are not part of the first resurrection.

The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up - their lives are only touched by the hand of God, not man. This is regarding the snatching or being caught up- today the word ( Rapture ) is applied. This has never happened to a Large group of people.Those Christians who have fallen asleep, (only the martyred souls from past Christian history) will be part of the first resurrection. The apostles are part of the first resurrection ex..... . St . Paul clearly states those who have fallen asleep are clearly caught up first then us who are alive and remain, but they are the martyred ones only or else there would be only need for one resurrection not two and their would be no such thing as FIRST FRUITS.

For the End Time portion of today This is what Revelation is speaking of.
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

PROOF OF TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev21.A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, (thousand year reign with Yeshua (Jesus) )
and He will live with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

REV. 20 CONTINUED: 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless![/QUOTE]
"( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
What translation is that?
There is no resurrection in rev 20

Absolutely · Aug 21, 2018

Absolutely said:

They obviously believe in a pretrib or midtrib Rapture.

MY RESPONSE:

Most correctly is..... those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching/ or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire- the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach (THE SHEPHERDESS PORTION) and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet today, only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. The Rev.7 portion are sealed through the Rachel portion. They are those who convert to Christianity through(The Shepherdess portion of the Church) and though part of the Bride they are only so through being the Brides offspring Rev12:17 . They will be martyred. They are like Christ in that fact, the Bride-like Mother Mary. Those who have died prior to this end of the age church who are Christians but not martyred, are part of the second resurrection. We the last generation- " The first shall be last and the Last shall be of the first fruits".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the end of the age Beast System and those who were martyred by the same evil system throughout history. For they too were martyred by a beast system of prior times. My point: it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections.
If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection too because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THIS BEAST SYSTEM ERA) . The Rev. is geared to an end time Elect. Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ. That does not mean that souls who were martyred in prior Christian history are not part of the first resurrection.

The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up - their lives are only touched by the hand of God, not man. This is regarding the snatching or being caught up- today the word ( Rapture ) is applied. This has never happened to a Large group of people.Those Christians who have fallen asleep, (only the martyred souls from past Christian history) will be part of the first resurrection. The apostles are part of the first resurrection ex..... . St . Paul clearly states those who have fallen asleep are clearly caught up first then us who are alive and remain, but they are the martyred ones only or else there would be only need for one resurrection not two and their would be no such thing as FIRST FRUITS.

For the End Time portion of today This is what Revelation is speaking of.
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

PROOF OF TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev21.A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, (thousand year reign with Yeshua (Jesus) )
and He will live with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

REV. 20 CONTINUED: 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless!

"( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
What translation is that?
There is no resurrection in rev 20[/QUOTE]
The greek breaks up that terrible translation that made you think rev 20 has a resurrection in it.
Whoever translated that had an agenda.
Bogus

Absolutely · Aug 21, 2018

Again pretrib is solid doctrine.
And btw the trumpet blasts in Joshua were PRETRIB/PREWRATH.
Gods people were with the ark,with Joshua/Jesus

DudleyDorite · Aug 21, 2018

PlainWord said:

Common now don't cop out on me, I love to debunk bad theology. And Preterism is the worse of all. Copping out just shows you've been out done!

You've accepted one of the greatest lies that has ever entered the Church...that "the age ended in 70AD!" Christ didn't destroy Israel, he allowed Israel's enemies to do so. Mosaic law ended at the cross, NOT when the temple was destroyed in 70AD!

Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (Mosaic Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

That's not true whatsoever. The gospel was preached way before it was written and wasn't preached in India, China, or all of Africa until well after the 1st century. Even today there are places that have never heard the gospel. It wasn't even copied in other languages until much later than in the 2nd century! If you think the gospel was able to be preached throughout the known world by 70AD at a time of severe Roman persecution you are delusional.

PlainWord quoted...

No hermeneutic, no truth.

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The KJV has a few blunders on verse 23. Which ye have heard" is a mis-translation. The KJV is notorius for these kind of mistakes. The interlinear words it like this..."

Since surely you are persisting in your belief and grounded and settled in the faith not being removed from the expectation of the well-message the one which ye hear being proclaimed in the entire creation under the heaven...

It's not saying that the gospel WAS preached to all creation, but that it is being preached in all creation. Take a look...
interlinear

Don't back out on me. I know you're having trouble coping, but give me a chance and I'll destroy you Preterist arguments.

PlainWord · Nov 14, 2018

DudleyDorite said:

Common now don't cop out on me, I love to debunk bad theology. And Preterism is the worse of all. Copping out just shows you've been out done!

You've accepted one of the greatest lies that has ever entered the Church...that "the age ended in 70AD!" Christ didn't destroy Israel, he allowed Israel's enemies to do so. Mosaic law ended at the cross, NOT when the temple was destroyed in 70AD!

Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (Mosaic Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

That's not true whatsoever. The gospel was preached way before it was written and wasn't preached in India, China, or all of Africa until well after the 1st century. Even today there are places that have never heard the gospel. It wasn't even copied in other languages until much later than in the 2nd century! If you think the gospel was able to be preached throughout the known world by 70AD at a time of severe Roman persecution you are delusional.

PlainWord quoted...

No hermeneutic, no truth.

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The KJV has a few blunders on verse 23. Which ye have heard" is a mis-translation. The KJV is notorius for these kind of mistakes. The interlinear words it like this..."

Since surely you are persisting in your belief and grounded and settled in the faith not being removed from the expectation of the well-message the one which ye hear being proclaimed in the entire creation under the heaven...

It's not saying that the gospel WAS preached to all creation, but that it is being preached in all creation. Take a look...
interlinear

Don't back out on me. I know you're having trouble coping, but give me a chance and I'll destroy you Preterist arguments.

You can't destroy the truth. Your view destroys everything Christ taught concerning His wrath to be paid out to those who refused to accept Him. Your view gives no rest or hope of rest to the persecuted Thessalonians. Your view removes the presence of Christ from us and all of His since the Cross. Your view means Christ is not on the throne ruling over the earth. Your view leaves the dead saints in Hades.

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