Rapture

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well how about you "test fitting" this absolutely? It says at Matthew 24:12-14, "And because lawlessness is increased most of people's love will grow cold. vs13, But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved/delivered. vs14, And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, AND THEN THE END SHALL COME."

So here's the question? Are the verses I just quoted applied to the Jews only and not for the Gentiles? Just so you know, I am setting up a trap for you!

The elect of Israel, that is, those who will have come to faith within the future tribulation period [70th Week/7-yrs], are the ones who will be delivering the specific message of Matthew 24:14[26:13] IN the tribulation period, "inviting" the "nations [/Gentiles]" TO their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [i.e. "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth].

"BLESSED" - Rev19:9 "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [as distinct from 19:7 ("the MARRIAGE" itself, which is aorist)]; Daniel 12:12; Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and parallels; Matthew 25:31-34,40; Matthew 24:44-47; [Mark 11:10 / Matthew 23:39]; and a number of other passages


Those who accept their message will be "BLESSED" to enter the earthly MK, just as they will...


[hope this is not too many brackets for Dud ]

 

[bluto]

The elect of Israel, that is, those who will have come to faith within the future tribulation period [70th Week/7-yrs], are the ones who will be delivering the specific message of Matthew 24:14[26:13] IN the tribulation period, "inviting" the "nations [/Gentiles]" TO their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [i.e. "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth].

"BLESSED" - Rev19:9 "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [as distinct from 19:7 ("the MARRIAGE" itself, which is aorist)]; Daniel 12:12; Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and parallels; Matthew 25:31-34,40; Matthew 24:44-47; [Mark 11:10 / Matthew 23:39]; and a number of other passages


Those who accept their message will be "BLESSED" to enter the earthly MK, just as they will...


[hope this is not too many brackets for Dud ]

Ok tdw, in other words you are saying that the rapture of the church occurs BEFORE the events that happen to Israel and their gathering here at Matthew 24 and the appearance of the anti-christ, correct? In short, the olivet Discourse does not apply to the church. Any other pre-tribbers agree with this?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ahwatukee]

1 Thes. tells us that we will all endure tribulation up until the time Christ is glorified in his saints. God is not a respecter of persons. He has never taken anybody OUT of their troubles but helps them through them.

Your error here is the same that many make. The trials and tribulations that Jesus said that believers would experience come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. However, God's wrath which is different from those common trials and tribulations, is soon coming upon this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and it is this tribulation/wrath that we are not appointed to suffer and that because it is God's wrath, which Jesus already satisfied on behalf of every believer.

You should listen to God's Word instead of men trying to deceive you through fabrication. Take a look at how bad you are interpreting these verses.

Attempting to discredit the one who is telling the truth is a common tactic with those who resist the truth of God's word, which is what you are attempting. I assure you that everything that I have posted is in accordance with God's word, which is why I also provide the scriptures to back it up.

Romans 5:9...

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5 isn't talking about a rapture or the end-times. How is one being saved from the wrath?
By justification by the blood of Christ! NOT a rapture!

The wrath of God must and will come upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Since believers are not appointed to suffer wrath--any wrath--whether it be the wrath coming upon this earth, or the wrath of being thrown into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgement, believers are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

He delivered us at the cross!

"And to wait for His Son from heaven" and "rescues us from the 'coming wrath."

You need to understand that wrath is coming upon this earth and that the living church must be removed prior to said wrath which will be initiated by that first seal being opened.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Not appointed to wrath is attributed to the result of salvation.

Your error here is not including the entire context. It is easy to bend scripture to say what you want it to when you just pick out the parts that you want to use to support you claim. In this case, you out left what Paul was talking about regarding believers not being appointed to suffer wrath, which I have listed below:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.

9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, Paul says, "while people are saying 'peace and security, destruction will come upon them suddenly' " said destruction being in reference to God's coming wrath. It is this coming wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer and that Jesus rescues us from. Notice that regarding the coming destruction/wrath that those who are caught in it will not escape.

Paul also states that believers are not in darkness so that this day of destruction/wrath will not over take us and that because believers belong to the day. The way in which that day will not overtake believers, is because of what Paul previously wrote about in I Thes.4:13-17, which was a detailed account of the Lord descending and gathering the entire church in the air in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, where the Lord stated that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to take us to the Father's house that where He is we may be also. You have to take into consideration the entire context and not just one verse.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That was written to the Church in Philly. To keep thee from means to "to attend to carefully, take care of." Nothing about removal by a rapture.

The promise is indeed found in the letter to the church of Philadelphia. However, those seven letters are not only addressed to those seven churches, but to all believers and churches throughout the entire church period which we are still in. That "hour of trial" is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath, which the majority of the book of Revelation is given to. The very first verse states "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass." The book of Revelation is a detailed account of the long prophesied "day of the Lord," the time of God's wrath.

Since the "hour of trial" i.e. that time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments has not yet taken place, then the promise to "keep us out of that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world" is to those believers who will be living just prior to that hour of trial and whom the Lord will keep us out of and that by removing us from the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok tdw, in other words you are saying that the rapture of the church occurs BEFORE the events that happen to Israel and their gathering here at Matthew 24 and the appearance of the anti-christ, correct? In short, the olivet Discourse does not apply to the church. Any other pre-tribbers agree with this?

Correct. Paul, in 1Th5:2-3 states that the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" is what will kick off that time period [Jesus used the same word in the Grk when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]," so the INITIAL ONE [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "[G5100- tis] A CERTAIN ONE"], and in 2Th2:9a's "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" that is, the ARRIVAL "man of sin" IS that "certain one," the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" i.e. SEAL #1]...

Paul is telling them the SEQUENCE [3x here, and THE SAME SEQUENCE 1x in 1Th4-5]:

"that day [the DOTL time period, v.2!!] will NOT BE PRESENT if not shall have come The Departure [v.1] FIRST, AND the man of sin be revealed..." [SEAL #1]


"the one presently restraining will restrain UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed."

 

[Absolutely]

Correct. Paul, in 1Th5:2-3 states that the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" is what will kick off that time period [Jesus used the same word in the Grk when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]," so the INITIAL ONE [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "[G5100- tis] A CERTAIN ONE"], and in 2Th2:9a's "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" that is, the ARRIVAL "man of sin" IS that "certain one," the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" i.e. SEAL #1]
At first glance i think i pretty much agree
Paul is telling them the SEQUENCE [3x here, and 1x in 1Th4-5]:

"that day [the DOTL time period, v.2!!] will NOT BE PRESENT if not shall have come The Departure [v.1] FIRST, AND the man of sin be revealed..." [SEAL #1]

 

[PlainWord]

The most misinterpreted passage in the Bible which has caused so many to think all this prophesy is future to us. They were not discussing the end of the planet at some future return of Christ. They were discussing the end of their age and they were in the last days of that age. Read the literal translation:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

In recording the events of 70 AD, Josephus has this to say:

So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages...

There you have it. The end of the Mosaic Age (Age of the Law) came in 70 AD. Christ's presence returned to see to the destruction of wicked Jerusalem including all of those wicked priests who took part in His crucifixion. But just prior to this, the Christians in Israel left hearing the divine spoken Word of God and they fled over the mountains to Pella.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A careful examination of the parts of the Olivet Discourse lead us the unmistakable conclusion that the 70ad events must take place "BEFORE" the beginning of birth pangs.

Matthew 22:7-8 also supplies this SEQUENCE.

--v.7 refers to the 70ad events - "he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city"

--v.8 then says, "THEN SAITH HE to His servants" - since Jesus is IN HEAVEN at the 70ad events (and afterward), this necessarily draws our attention to WHAT it was exactly that "HE SAITH" AFTER THAT ["THEN SAITH HE"] (and we can look, for one, at The Revelation, where verse 1 states, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW unto His servants [7:4, for example] things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," which things are described in chpts 4-19 and following [incl'g His 2nd Coming to the earth], which will occur "IN QUICKNESS," rather than, as some say, over the course of some 2000 yrs [the Historicist viewpoint]).

 

[PlainWord]

A careful examination of the parts of the Olivet Discourse lead us the unmistakable conclusion that the 70ad events must take place "BEFORE" the beginning of birth pangs.

Matthew 22:7-8 also supplies this SEQUENCE.

--v.7 refers to the 70ad events - "he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city"

--v.8 then says, "THEN SAITH HE to His servants" - since Jesus is IN HEAVEN at the 70ad events (and afterward), this necessarily draws our attention to WHAT it was exactly that "HE SAITH" AFTER THAT ["THEN SAITH HE"] (and we can look, for one, at The Revelation, where verse 1 states, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW unto His servants [7:4, for example] things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," which things are described in chpts 4-19 and following [incl'g His 2nd Coming to the earth], which will occur "IN QUICKNESS," rather than, as some say, over the course of some 2000 yrs [the Historicist viewpoint]).

No, the birth pangs came before the 70 AD events.

Everything listed happened between 30-70 AD. Put yourself in the prospective of a Jew living in Jerusalem as that is where Christ and the disciples were when they asked their famous question. You had wars and rumors of wars, you had earthquakes in various places. You had many false prophets. You had an enormous famine, and more specifically, you had most of them being put to death. All of these things can be found in the Book of Acts and all preceded the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[bluto]

Correct. Paul, in 1Th5:2-3 states that the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" is what will kick off that time period [Jesus used the same word in the Grk when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]," so the INITIAL ONE [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "[G5100- tis] A CERTAIN ONE"], and in 2Th2:9a's "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" that is, the ARRIVAL "man of sin" IS that "certain one," the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" i.e. SEAL #1]...

Paul is telling them the SEQUENCE [3x here, and THE SAME SEQUENCE 1x in 1Th4-5]:

"that day [the DOTL time period, v.2!!] will NOT BE PRESENT if not shall have come The Departure [v.1] FIRST, AND the man of sin be revealed..." [SEAL #1]


"the one presently restraining will restrain UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed."

Ok, just as I thought so here is what I would like to explain? How is it that Matthew 24 does not apply to the church and you guys teach that what Jesus Christ said at Matthew 28:19-20 does apply to the church? Look, Jesus is talking to the same disciples here at Matthew 28:19-20 as He did at Matthew 24.

Also, notice the words at Matthew 28:20, "teaching them/the disciples to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS EVEN TO THE END OF THE AGE." Compare this with His words at Matthew 24:14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world FOR A WITNESS TO ALL THE NATIONS, AND THEN THE END SHALL COME."

How is it that at Matthew 28:18-20 (The Great Commission) applies to the church but at Matthew 24 (The Great Tribulation) applies only to the Jews? And this business of how you guys make an issue of the birth pangs at Matt 24:8 also bothers me. A woman who is pregnant will eventually have birth pangs right up until the baby the day of the baby's birth, at the end of the birth there are not more birth pangs because the baby has been successfully "delivered" just like Chritians will be delivered at the last day by the second coming.

Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19-20 are connected by extension to the end of the age/world. So, where am I wrong?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[PlainWord]

See if you can following the bouncing ball. It's really simple: Verse and explanation using Young's Literal Translation:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

They wanted to know when the temple and buildings would be destroyed and they associated it with the return of Christ's presence and the end of their age (70 AD).

4 And Jesus answering said to them, `Take heed that no one may lead you astray, 5 for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray,

According to Josephus, there were tons of false prophets which led people to their deaths.

Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes...

6 and ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all [these] to come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 `For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The Jewish rebellion started in 66 AD. Rome invaded Galilee and the towns outside of Jerusalem first. Town by town fell and those defending these towns which escaped fled to Jerusalem, their stronghold.

7 ...and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places; 8 and all these [are] the beginning of sorrows..

Acts 7:11: Now a famine and great trouble came over all the land of Egypt and Canaan, and our fathers found no sustenance.
Acts 11:28: Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Claudius Caesar reigned from 41-54 AD. Thus these days were the beginnings of sorrows. This time frame also covered Paul's first and second missionary journeys.

9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name.

10 of the 11 remaining disciples, plus Paul, were killed between 44-68 AD. John was banished to Patmos by Nero in 68 AD. Nero attempted to kill John by dropping him in a vat of boiling oil but it failed to harm John, thus he was banished.

10 and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

According to Jesus He came to divide family members against each other and the nation itself. He did not come to bring peace or to unite Israel. Indeed, Israel became a house divided, those who accepted Messiah, the true Israel, and those who did not, apostate Israel, the great falling away that Paul discusses in 2 Thes 2.

11 `And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.

I already showed the many false prophets in Jerusalem from 66-70 AD. Many were led to their deaths. Other false prophets can be found throughout the work of the disciples in the NT.

14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive.

"All the world" refers to the known world of the Roman Empire. Paul makes this clear:

Col 1:23: if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

See, this happened, now the end would come, Jerusalem would be surrounded and they would endure the worst tribulation any nation ever experienced or ever would again.

 

[bluto]

See if you can following the bouncing ball. It's really simple: Verse and explanation using Young's Literal Translation:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

They wanted to know when the temple and buildings would be destroyed and they associated it with the return of Christ's presence and the end of their age (70 AD).

4 And Jesus answering said to them, `Take heed that no one may lead you astray, 5 for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray,

According to Josephus, there were tons of false prophets which led people to their deaths.

Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes...

6 and ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all [these] to come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 `For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The Jewish rebellion started in 66 AD. Rome invaded Galilee and the towns outside of Jerusalem first. Town by town fell and those defending these towns which escaped fled to Jerusalem, their stronghold.

7 ...and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places; 8 and all these [are] the beginning of sorrows..

Acts 7:11: Now a famine and great trouble came over all the land of Egypt and Canaan, and our fathers found no sustenance.
Acts 11:28: Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Claudius Caesar reigned from 41-54 AD. Thus these days were the beginnings of sorrows. This time frame also covered Paul's first and second missionary journeys.

9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name.

10 of the 11 remaining disciples, plus Paul, were killed between 44-68 AD. John was banished to Patmos by Nero in 68 AD. Nero attempted to kill John by dropping him in a vat of boiling oil but it failed to harm John, thus he was banished.

10 and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

According to Jesus He came to divide family members against each other and the nation itself. He did not come to bring peace or to unite Israel. Indeed, Israel became a house divided, those who accepted Messiah, the true Israel, and those who did not, apostate Israel, the great falling away that Paul discusses in 2 Thes 2.

11 `And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.

I already showed the many false prophets in Jerusalem from 66-70 AD. Many were led to their deaths. Other false prophets can be found throughout the work of the disciples in the NT.

14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive.

"All the world" refers to the known world of the Roman Empire. Paul makes this clear:

Col 1:23: if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

See, this happened, now the end would come, Jerusalem would be surrounded and they would endure the worst tribulation any nation ever experienced or ever would again.

Well plainword, it appears your "bouncing" ball has lost some air. Your struck out in your first quote of Matthew 24:3. Watch carefully the question? The diciples are asking Jesus two questions? (1) when shall these things be," That is referring back to verse 2, "Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." This is the first question?

The second question is, "and the end of the age/world." You quoted Young's literlal translation and it reads, "and of the full end of the age?' Did you see or notice that word "full?" What do you think that means in this context.

What you have said reminds me of the trial record of Jesus Christ being accused of blasphemy at Matthew 26:57-67. Please take not of what the high priest Caiaphas as Jesus Christ at vs63. He is asking Jesus Christ two things. "But Jesus kept silent, And the high priest said to Him, I "adjure" You by the living God, that You tell us, "WHETHER" Number one thing, "are You the Christ/Messiah, and number two, "are you the Son of God."

In other words, the high priest is asking Jesus Christ to swear an oath explaining if He/Jesus is the Christ/Messiah and (2) the Son of God." I'm bringing this up to show you that at Mattehw 24:3 the disciples are also asking Jesus two different things? Sure, the temple building in your scenario may have been destroyed, but tell when the end of the world has come i.e the last day or the second coming?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[PlainWord]

Well plainword, it appears your "bouncing" ball has lost some air. Your struck out in your first quote of Matthew 24:3. Watch carefully the question? The diciples are asking Jesus two questions? (1) when shall these things be," That is referring back to verse 2, "Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." This is the first question?

The second question is, "and the end of the age/world." You quoted Young's literlal translation and it reads, "and of the full end of the age?' Did you see or notice that word "full?" What do you think that means in this context.

What you have said reminds me of the trial record of Jesus Christ being accused of blasphemy at Matthew 26:57-67. Please take not of what the high priest Caiaphas as Jesus Christ at vs63. He is asking Jesus Christ two things. "But Jesus kept silent, And the high priest said to Him, I "adjure" You by the living God, that You tell us, "WHETHER" Number one thing, "are You the Christ/Messiah, and number two, "are you the Son of God."

In other words, the high priest is asking Jesus Christ to swear an oath explaining if He/Jesus is the Christ/Messiah and (2) the Son of God." I'm bringing this up to show you that at Mattehw 24:3 the disciples are also asking Jesus two different things? Sure, the temple building in your scenario may have been destroyed, but tell when the end of the world has come i.e the last day or the second coming?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

It's all one topic bluto. Go back to Luke 19, the final week before His crucifixion. Jesus says:

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

This was a couple of days before the Olivet. Now look at all three versions of the Olivet. They recount the same conversation and the same question:

Luke 21: 7: So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Mat 24: 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your Presence, and of the end of the age?”

Mark 13:
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

There is no hint of a 2,000+ year gap. The topic was the destruction of the temple and nothing else was in focus. Two of the versions make no mention to the end of the age or presence of Christ. Their age was coming to an end. The Law was coming to an end and salvation through grace and faith in Jesus was to replace the law in the next age. They were living in the last days of their age. Theirs was the wicked and perverse generation, more wicked than any generation since Noah's.

Peter makes clear in Acts 2-3 that they were in the last days and that the presence of Christ would come to their generation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no hint of a 2,000+ year gap. The topic was the destruction of the temple and nothing else was in focus.

Actually there was a hint, but you missed it.

Even though the Lord spoke about the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem and Judea around 70 AD, He also mentioned two other things which would be in the future: (1) the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place and (2) the Great Tribulation (a unique worldwide event which has yet to happen and which is a direct result of the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation).

So while on the one hand Christ was predicting the destruction of Herod's temple, on the other hand he was prophesying about a future third temple which would be desecrated with the Abomination of Desolation (through the Antichrist). And this would happen in Daniel's 70th week (7 years which are yet to come).

 

[bluto]

It's all one topic bluto. Go back to Luke 19, the final week before His crucifixion. Jesus says:

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

This was a couple of days before the Olivet. Now look at all three versions of the Olivet. They recount the same conversation and the same question:

Luke 21: 7: So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Mat 24: 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your Presence, and of the end of the age?”

Mark 13:
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

There is no hint of a 2,000+ year gap. The topic was the destruction of the temple and nothing else was in focus. Two of the versions make no mention to the end of the age or presence of Christ. Their age was coming to an end. The Law was coming to an end and salvation through grace and faith in Jesus was to replace the law in the next age. They were living in the last days of their age. Theirs was the wicked and perverse generation, more wicked than any generation since Noah's.

Peter makes clear in Acts 2-3 that they were in the last days and that the presence of Christ would come to their generation.

Good grief, I know it's one topic but within that one topic are two questions? "Tell us when will these things will be, (that is when there is not one stone that is NOT torn down, and 2, "what is the sign of your coming resulting in the end of the age/world. Jesus then goes on to explain everything as to what is going to happen and describes the condition of the world, looking out for the anti-christ etc.

Then you guys come along and tell everybody the church has been raptured before all these things take place. And btw, you did not address one word of my post regarding the connection of the Great Comission to Matthew 24:14, why? Oh I know, you won't be here so what difference does it make.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I only have a minute here, so this will have to be brief:

[re: Olivet Discourse] Here's how the texts are arranged (when plotted out together with how the parallels connect):

--"the beginning of birth PANGS" - Matt24:4-8; Mk13:5-8 (and the same described, but not so LABELED, in Lk21:8-11--this is KEY);

--then it says (Lk21:12), "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (that is, BEFORE the aforementioned "birth PANGS") and then goes on to describe the 70ad events in vv.12-24a [this must occur BEFORE "the beginning of birth pangs"--the text just said so]; and 24b follows on from there (which part will actually END at the end of the future trib, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, per Rev11:2);

--this 24b part means that this whole thing does not conclude until His 2nd Coming to the earth--the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" referring to that which started in 606bc, read: "Gentile domination over Israel," think: Neb's image/statue [head-to-toes' completion], and ends at His Second Coming to the earth, Dan2:35 or thereabouts [7:25,27 also]);

--verses 25-28 again [Lk21] (and even through verse 36) speaks of what occurs DURING the future tribulation period (as well as His Second Coming to the earth; ALL "Son of man cometh/shall come/coming/etc" speaks to His Second Coming to the earth, not of our Rapture); speaking of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, when He 'returns' there]," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]"--Luke 12:36-37,38,40 said, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal)



[I just had to conquer a fly that was buzzing around... when I swatted it, guess where it fell! Right on the "bracket" key. LOL ]


...back later to address "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"

 

[PlainWord]

Good grief, I know it's one topic but within that one topic are two questions? "Tell us when will these things will be, (that is when there is not one stone that is NOT torn down, and 2, "what is the sign of your coming resulting in the end of the age/world. Jesus then goes on to explain everything as to what is going to happen and describes the condition of the world, looking out for the anti-christ etc.

Then you guys come along and tell everybody the church has been raptured before all these things take place. And btw, you did not address one word of my post regarding the connection of the Great Comission to Matthew 24:14, why? Oh I know, you won't be here so what difference does it make.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Again, the disciples link the two events, 1) the destruction of the temple, 2) the presence of Christ returning. They wanted to know the signs of these two events because they happen at the same time. They both happened in 70 AD. I addressed Mat 24:14. Here it is again in case you missed it:

Mat 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

According to Paul, they accomplished this mission.

Col 1: 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

"was preached to every creature under heaven." Past tense. Do you not see that? At the time the world was dominated by Rome. There was no other part of the world known to them, hence the term "known world." Was Paul lying or plain wrong? Neither. This was how they spoke and understood and related things. The disciples went throughout their known world, AKA, the Roman Empire, and none went further.

The "end" Jesus spoke of in Mat 24:14 was the end of Israel. It is Israel in focus which is much clearer from Luke's account although each account contains "Judea" as the place to flee. Here's Luke 21:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

ALL THINGS WRITTEN was to be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. Do you not see that the events are to occur in Judea and Jerusalem? Each of the three accounts discuss the same thing, none discuss the end of human history or planet Earth. Only those in Judea and Jerusalem were to flee. No other location was given. Christ's vengeance, His wrath, was aimed squarely at disbelieving and unfaithful wicked Jews. He makes clear that everything which He mentioned before in Mat 24 was to happen to that very generation:

Mat 24: 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

No generation thousands of years into His future was being discussed. Go back one chapter to Mat 23. Who is Christ mad at here?

Mat 23: 31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

The religious leaders who would kill Christ would also kill many of His disciples including His half-brother James. On the very day that the head priests threw James off the roof of the temple, Roman solders surrounded the city. Jesus reiterates that it was this generation which be condemned. They would kill His prophets just as their forefathers killed the prophets sent to them. God had it with wicked Israel. This is why He destroyed her (the Mother of all Harlots).

The so called "antiChrist" which Paul calls the "Man of Sin" was Titus. It was Titus who stood in the temple and was worshiped. It was Titus who entered into an adulterous affair with Queen Berenice of Israel (the daughter of Herod Agrippa). Prior to Titus' appearance, the "great falling away" of Israel occurred. The unbelieving Jews of that day by 66 AD went completely off the rails in wickedness. Even before this, look what Jesus has to say about His generation.

Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you?

Jesus was speaking of no other generation. Even Josephus and Titus recognized that Israel had to be destroyed and that Jerusalem was the most wicked of any city either had ever heard of.

The "rapture" is a different, but related topic, which we can discuss if you want?

 

[PlainWord]

I only have a minute here, so this will have to be brief:

[re: Olivet Discourse] Here's how the texts are arranged (when plotted out together with how the parallels connect):

--"the beginning of birth PANGS" - Matt24:4-8; Mk13:5-8 (and the same described, but not so LABELED, in Lk21:8-11--this is KEY);

--then it says (Lk21:12), "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (that is, BEFORE the aforementioned "birth PANGS") and then goes on to describe the 70ad events in vv.12-24a [this must occur BEFORE "the beginning of birth pangs"--the text just said so]; and 24b follows on from there (which part will actually END at the end of the future trib, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, per Rev11:2);

--this 24b part means that this whole thing does not conclude until His 2nd Coming to the earth--the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" referring to that which started in 606bc, read: "Gentile domination over Israel," think: Neb's image/statue [head-to-toes' completion], and ends at His Second Coming to the earth, Dan2:35 or thereabouts [7:25,27 also]);

--verses 25-28 again [Lk21] (and even through verse 36) speaks of what occurs DURING the future tribulation period (as well as His Second Coming to the earth; ALL "Son of man cometh/shall come/coming/etc" speaks to His Second Coming to the earth, not of our Rapture); speaking of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, when He 'returns' there]," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]"--Luke 12:36-37,38,40 said, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal)



[I just had to conquer a fly that was buzzing around... when I swatted it, guess where it fell! Right on the "bracket" key. LOL ]


...back later to address "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"

Look what Josephus said about the events he was witnessing in 70 AD:

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon.

The burning of the temple and Jerusalem was the full end of their age which the disciples also understood. It happened on exactly the same day that the first temple was destroyed. Many don't know this. Prior to the invasion by Rome of Judea and Jerusalem, God returned with His armies from heaven with chariots riding in the sky. Josephus records this:

a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

The biggest problem is the translation of the word Parousia. It does NOT mean "coming" it means "presence." The opposite of parousia is "absence" it is NOT "leaving." This is why the disciples ask for the SIGNS of HIS PRESENCE so that they would know Christ's presence had returned. Many of the Jews of 70 AD saw signs from heaven. Some recognized them, others didn't just as Daniel predicted. Josephus relates some of these signs:

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

Look at the above crazy events and tell me God was not involved. A heifer is a young calf, not pregnant. How can a young non pregnant calf give birth to a lamb? What was Jesus called, "the Lamb of God?" A star resembling a sword? What does Rev 19:15 say? A great light lighting up the temple for a half hour? Ring a bell? It should. Read Rev 18:1 and 8:1.

Josephus uses the same term "desolation" that Daniel and Christ used when they said, "Abomination of Desolation." A Roman general standing on Jewish soil who would destroy the city and leave it desolate fits to a tee. Titus was the Abomination of Desolation. Titus was the "Prince to Come" of Dan 9:26. It was Titus who destroyed the city and sanctuary by fire (hence "consummation") and left the city desolate. Those were the days of the Gentiles, the Roman soldiers trampled the city underfoot for 42 months!!

Sorry about your fly Walter White, LOL

 

[PlainWord]

As for the return of Christ, via His presence, this is so badly misunderstood by most Christians. Tradition sadly has replaced what the Word actually says. The Word says Christ's presence would return to THAT same generation as in within 40 years. His disciples expected it and taught it. Christ was not going to descend slowly back to earth as a human figure. So many get this wrong because they fail to read closely. Read Acts 1 very closely.

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Christ would come as they saw Him GO INTO HEAVEN, not as they saw Him leave Earth. What does a fully glorified Jesus look like to mere mortals in our physical realm? Paul experienced it and recounted it 3X.

Acts 9:3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
Acts 22:6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me.
Acts 26:13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.

Christ appears as a BRIGHT LIGHT to mortal men. Thus when Christ entered heaven, the disciples saw a bright light like a flash of lightening. THIS is EXACTLY how Christ said He would return.

Mat 24: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

We also find lightening in Revelation, don't we? Since 70 AD, Christ's presence has remained on earth with His church. We are His bride and He is our bridegroom. We are in the Kingdom Age which some call, the millennium. Christ is on the throne in heaven and the earth is His footstool and we Christians, who are not of this earth and who are hated by this earth, represent Him to the unbelievers. We are now the lights of the world, just as Christ was the LIGHT OF THE WORLD.

Dan 2: And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth....44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms (render them useless), and it shall stand forever.

The Great Mountain is Christianity. Christianity filled the whole earth and become the #1 "religion" on the planet and still is today rendering useless any kingdom of man!! Salvation is not found in any man-made kingdom. No kingdom of man can stand against the Kingdom of God for which we Christians belong. This began in the days of those Roman Caesars and continues. Around 300 AD, Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. No longer were Caesars considered gods. What a dramatic change!!

WELCOME TO THE KINGDOM AGE for those who don't yet realize it. Now Satan has likely been loosed and is out there again deceiving the nations. But have no fear, God will protect His Church!

 

[PlainWord]

Oh, BTW, the resurrection also occurred back then as clearly taught by early church father Ignatius ~110 AD:

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter IX.

Today when we die, this "tent" our flesh body goes into the ground while our spiritual body immediately goes to the spiritual realm, AKA heaven. This was the big change Paul taught in 1 Cor 15. No more do the dead go to Hades apart from God. All things have been restored. How excited Peter must have been when he taught that this was about to happen.

Acts 3: 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Those wicked Jews of 70 AD were utterly and completely destroyed from the people. 93% of all Jews on the planet were wiped out during the great tribulation of Israel most of which were starved to death during the siege of Jerusalem.

 

[Noose]

Oh, BTW, the resurrection also occurred back then as clearly taught by early church father Ignatius ~110 AD:

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter IX.

Today when we die, this "tent" our flesh body goes into the ground while our spiritual body immediately goes to the spiritual realm, AKA heaven. This was the big change Paul taught in 1 Cor 15. No more do the dead go to Hades apart from God. All things have been restored. How excited Peter must have been when he taught that this was about to happen.

Acts 3: 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Those wicked Jews of 70 AD were utterly and completely destroyed from the people. 93% of all Jews on the planet were wiped out during the great tribulation of Israel most of which were starved to death during the siege of Jerusalem.

You write so passionately but you are not convincing anyone. One question though:
Q. If the end was in the 70AD, can you do the 70 week calculation from Daniel's prophesy and show how it ends in 70AD?