Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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I agree. But it doesn't say their bodies actually get to heaven. We don't know. What is clear from 1 Cor 15:23 is the ALL believers receive their resurrection bodies at the same time. So I can't believe that they get theirs before the rest of the saved do.
My only point here is that the Bible says that everyone will die ONCE. Since neither Enoch or Elijah physically died, this would be the time for their physical death. But as to being resurrected, that would contradict 1 Cor 15:23.
It is correct that Lazarus was raised to life in his mortal body.
Except 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit that. All believers will be resurrected "when he comes".
Being called to heaven doesn't mean they got glorified bodies. If they did, that would contradict 1 Cor 15:23.
Where do you see "different timings" for that first resurrection??
I know that pretribbers make a big deal about how different passages don't all say the same thing, as if they are describing different events.
But I think it should be obvious that the same event can be described rather differently by different observers. There's no law or requirement that biblical writers MUST write the same things about a specific event.
I really don't follow you here. Why "ignore" anything? You are speculating that the 2 W "were part of this resurrected" or something about a "second the pretrib rapture and resurrection". I don't know what you are actually referring to and what to ignore.
Obviously Christ isn't resurrected at the end of the Trib. That's the whole point of 1 Cor 15:23. He is the FIRST human to receive a glorified resurrected body. ALL believers will receive one "when he comes".
Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 all clearly indicate ONE resurrection for the saved. So WHEN would that be?
It CANNOT be pretrib because Rev 20:4 tells us that martyrs are resurrected and will reign with Christ, which is after the Trib.
So there is only ONE place the singular resurrection can be: at the end of the Trib.
Do you find any evidence that there will be people saved during the Millennium? I don't, but I used to think there would be. But there is NO MENTION of any resurrection for any convert during the Millennium at all.
So, since there is only one resurrection of the saved, it has to be "when he comes" back, which is the Second Advent. No other time makes sense or fits Scripture.
And we can ignore the teaching about Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven after being resurrected. Because it all happens "when He comes" which will be at the end of the Trib.
My only point here is that the Bible says that everyone will die ONCE. Since neither Enoch or Elijah physically died, this would be the time for their physical death. But as to being resurrected, that would contradict 1 Cor 15:23.
It is correct that Lazarus was raised to life in his mortal body.
Except 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit that. All believers will be resurrected "when he comes".
Being called to heaven doesn't mean they got glorified bodies. If they did, that would contradict 1 Cor 15:23.
Where do you see "different timings" for that first resurrection??
I know that pretribbers make a big deal about how different passages don't all say the same thing, as if they are describing different events.
But I think it should be obvious that the same event can be described rather differently by different observers. There's no law or requirement that biblical writers MUST write the same things about a specific event.
I really don't follow you here. Why "ignore" anything? You are speculating that the 2 W "were part of this resurrected" or something about a "second the pretrib rapture and resurrection". I don't know what you are actually referring to and what to ignore.
Obviously Christ isn't resurrected at the end of the Trib. That's the whole point of 1 Cor 15:23. He is the FIRST human to receive a glorified resurrected body. ALL believers will receive one "when he comes".
Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 all clearly indicate ONE resurrection for the saved. So WHEN would that be?
It CANNOT be pretrib because Rev 20:4 tells us that martyrs are resurrected and will reign with Christ, which is after the Trib.
So there is only ONE place the singular resurrection can be: at the end of the Trib.
Do you find any evidence that there will be people saved during the Millennium? I don't, but I used to think there would be. But there is NO MENTION of any resurrection for any convert during the Millennium at all.
So, since there is only one resurrection of the saved, it has to be "when he comes" back, which is the Second Advent. No other time makes sense or fits Scripture.
And we can ignore the teaching about Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven after being resurrected. Because it all happens "when He comes" which will be at the end of the Trib.
FreeGrace2 said:
Would you care to inform us of what 'this incident" you are referring to?
You might as well, because you've made no progress at all. iow, you've made no case at all.
And now we see that you can't even remember the context for your challenge.
Would you care to inform us of what 'this incident" you are referring to?
You might as well, because you've made no progress at all. iow, you've made no case at all.
And now we see that you can't even remember the context for your challenge.
FreeGrace2 said:
Would you care to inform us of what 'this incident" you are referring to?
You might as well, because you've made no progress at all. iow, you've made no case at all.
And now we see that you can't even remember the context for your challenge.
So you can't even provide information about what you asked for. That's sad.
And all your childish retorts say everything. Those who read these threads for information will clearly see through all your snippets. That you have no information. You don't or won't respond with answers to questions or requests for clarifications.
Maybe it's just games for you. Who knows.
Would you care to inform us of what 'this incident" you are referring to?
You might as well, because you've made no progress at all. iow, you've made no case at all.
And now we see that you can't even remember the context for your challenge.
So you can't even provide information about what you asked for. That's sad.
And all your childish retorts say everything. Those who read these threads for information will clearly see through all your snippets. That you have no information. You don't or won't respond with answers to questions or requests for clarifications.
Maybe it's just games for you. Who knows.
None of those define tribulation as wrath. Those are two words that mean different things. The reason I mention it is because it seems like pre-tribbers equate being in the tribulation with being under God's wrath and use 'not appointed unto wrath' as some kind of verse to argue for the pre-trib rapture. But there is no reason to think that just because someone is on the earth during the tribulation, that God is angry at Him, like the saints who overcome Satan. So 'tribulation is wrath' is wrong.
That's not the issue.
I don't recall 'wrath' being used toward believers. But there is a warning about punishment/avenging for fornication in I Thessalonians.
That's not the issue.
I don't recall 'wrath' being used toward believers. But there is a warning about punishment/avenging for fornication in I Thessalonians.
Yes - things like that come in handy sometimes... 
This is one I did:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
This is one I did:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
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No, your response just reminded me of a new guy who signed up a month or so ago. No worries....
Christ certainly did witness of the truth.
He also fulfilled the prophecies in Isaiah.
Here's the answer from the O.T.
The term many in context doesn't refer to a limited atonement, as some Calvinists claim, but rather the opposite. I'm not saying you're a Calvinist, but have heard Calvinist claim that.
Isaiah 53:10-12
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Christ certainly did witness of the truth.
He also fulfilled the prophecies in Isaiah.
Here's the answer from the O.T.
The term many in context doesn't refer to a limited atonement, as some Calvinists claim, but rather the opposite. I'm not saying you're a Calvinist, but have heard Calvinist claim that.
Isaiah 53:10-12
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Yes - things like that come in handy sometimes...
This is one I did:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
This is one I did:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
I'm going to have to take a close look at that in the morning with a cup of octane. My brain needs to wind down with this Chamomile tea before bed. Lol 🍵😌👍
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Ah, ok. No, I'm not here to cause a ruckus... I just have a very old perspective on things. No, I'm not a Calvinist. I don't even know what one is really. My religion predates religion in general.
I asked for someone to show me where Christ said he was here to die for the sins of mankind. Because Isaiah prophesized doesn't mean Christ ever said anything about him dying for the sins of humanity.
Isaiah also says "He was like someone people turned away from; he was despised, and we didn’t value Him.". People flocked to Christ, the were drawn to him. This is one example of why I doubt Isaiah was talking about Christ. Is there a time in the prophecy? Isaiah prophesized this around 400 years prior. He could have been talking about another servant.
I asked for someone to show me where Christ said he was here to die for the sins of mankind. Because Isaiah prophesized doesn't mean Christ ever said anything about him dying for the sins of humanity.
Isaiah also says "He was like someone people turned away from; he was despised, and we didn’t value Him.". People flocked to Christ, the were drawn to him. This is one example of why I doubt Isaiah was talking about Christ. Is there a time in the prophecy? Isaiah prophesized this around 400 years prior. He could have been talking about another servant.
Jesus fulfilled it but also said it
“For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45
“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
Isaiah the prophet heard his word 700 years before that and witnessed it
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
Isaiah 53:5-6, 10-11 KJV
Simon , surnamed Peter , an apostle of Jesus witnessed it
“who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
1 Peter 2:24-25
the authors of Hebrews explains it
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
This is a basic fact of Christianity it’s why Paul says this
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV
that’s all it means to say “ Christ bore our sins “ the Bible repeatedly says it Jesus also when he talks of him laying his life down for the sheep , dying for the ransom of many , and shedding his blood for remission of thier sins “
It’s just a single concept stated many ways Jesus died willingly for the debt we owe for this
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 3:23
If he didn’t die for our sins then we die in our sins and can’t be saved it’s essential belief Jesus bore the sins of the whole world every human being it’s why we do this
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6-
“For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
In other words of anyone sins They must die because God said it , so
He’s given us Christs death , to atone for and fulfill that demand upon our soul of death for sin
“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 2:2 KJV
he Is the atoning sacrifice we learn about in the law , that bears the sin of the people only Jesus is once sacrificed for all time for all creation it is sufficient.
“even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Matthew 20:28 KJV
“For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45
“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
Isaiah the prophet heard his word 700 years before that and witnessed it
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
Isaiah 53:5-6, 10-11 KJV
Simon , surnamed Peter , an apostle of Jesus witnessed it
“who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
1 Peter 2:24-25
the authors of Hebrews explains it
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
This is a basic fact of Christianity it’s why Paul says this
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV
that’s all it means to say “ Christ bore our sins “ the Bible repeatedly says it Jesus also when he talks of him laying his life down for the sheep , dying for the ransom of many , and shedding his blood for remission of thier sins “
It’s just a single concept stated many ways Jesus died willingly for the debt we owe for this
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 3:23
If he didn’t die for our sins then we die in our sins and can’t be saved it’s essential belief Jesus bore the sins of the whole world every human being it’s why we do this
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6-
“For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
In other words of anyone sins They must die because God said it , so
He’s given us Christs death , to atone for and fulfill that demand upon our soul of death for sin
“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 2:2 KJV
he Is the atoning sacrifice we learn about in the law , that bears the sin of the people only Jesus is once sacrificed for all time for all creation it is sufficient.
“even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Matthew 20:28 KJV
Ok. Thanks for clarifying that. I'm old school too.
I think this is an example of where the translation really matters. Isaiah 53 is a gospel chapter about the events of Christ's sacrifice. It starts with His kangaroo court and He was forsaken by the crowd, representing the world and many disciples hid.
"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.". KJV
Then there's the vivid description of what happened spiritually when He was crucified.
We have all committed transgressions and gone astray like sheep described. However, He bore the punishment we deserve. The Father" laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
Most Churches acknowledge that.
THe gospel of John tells us what the appropriate response should be to His Sacrificial death, burial and resurrection.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
3:18
I think this is an example of where the translation really matters. Isaiah 53 is a gospel chapter about the events of Christ's sacrifice. It starts with His kangaroo court and He was forsaken by the crowd, representing the world and many disciples hid.
"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.". KJV
Then there's the vivid description of what happened spiritually when He was crucified.
We have all committed transgressions and gone astray like sheep described. However, He bore the punishment we deserve. The Father" laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
Most Churches acknowledge that.
THe gospel of John tells us what the appropriate response should be to His Sacrificial death, burial and resurrection.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
3:18
Take a good long look at the table on this web page:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
Pay particular attention to the details in/of the verses in the 'Trumpet' columns until you can see the answers to these questions:
Q: Who kills the Two Witnesses?
A: The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.
Q: During what span of time MUST the beast come up out of the bottomless pit?
A: After the bottomless pit is opened but before the Two Witnesses are killed.
Q: When is the bottomless pit opened?
A: During the events of Trumpet 5
Q: What does all of this tell you about the timing of the Two Witnesses relative to the Trumpet Events?
A: They coincide/overlap. And - I suggest - the Two Witnesses actually cause the Trumpet Events to come about by their prophecy.
Look at the details in all of the verses regarding the sun, moon, and stars.
After the tribulation.
Before the Second Coming of Christ.
A 3.5-year period of time we call the Two Witnesses.
Some of this time is before Trumpet 5; some is after [the beginning of the Trumpet 5 events].
Jesus appears after the Two Witnesses are raised up.
Then, after Jesus raptures the saints, God commands the angels to "pour out" the Vials ('Wrath of God').
Armageddon is toward the end of the Vials ('Wrath of God').
The tribulation is over before the Trumpet Events and the Vials occur.
Therefore, the Trumpet Events and the Vials ('Wrath of God') are both post-tribulation.
By definition - by virtue of the sequence/timing given to us in scripture - they cannot be part of the tribulation.
The sequence/timing is given in this phrase:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
Everything mentioned after those words is post-tribulation.
The description concerning the sun, moon, and stars - is in reality a 3.5-year period of time - that we call the Two Witnesses - after which occurs the Second Coming of Christ.
All of it is post-tribulation.
The tribulation ends at the start of the time of the Two Witnesses - the Second Coming occurs [at least] 3.5 years later...
Study it carefully.
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
Pay particular attention to the details in/of the verses in the 'Trumpet' columns until you can see the answers to these questions:
Q: Who kills the Two Witnesses?
A: The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.
Q: During what span of time MUST the beast come up out of the bottomless pit?
A: After the bottomless pit is opened but before the Two Witnesses are killed.
Q: When is the bottomless pit opened?
A: During the events of Trumpet 5
Q: What does all of this tell you about the timing of the Two Witnesses relative to the Trumpet Events?
A: They coincide/overlap. And - I suggest - the Two Witnesses actually cause the Trumpet Events to come about by their prophecy.
Look at the details in all of the verses regarding the sun, moon, and stars.
After the tribulation.
Before the Second Coming of Christ.
A 3.5-year period of time we call the Two Witnesses.
Some of this time is before Trumpet 5; some is after [the beginning of the Trumpet 5 events].
Jesus appears after the Two Witnesses are raised up.
Then, after Jesus raptures the saints, God commands the angels to "pour out" the Vials ('Wrath of God').
Armageddon is toward the end of the Vials ('Wrath of God').
The tribulation is over before the Trumpet Events and the Vials occur.
Therefore, the Trumpet Events and the Vials ('Wrath of God') are both post-tribulation.
By definition - by virtue of the sequence/timing given to us in scripture - they cannot be part of the tribulation.
The sequence/timing is given in this phrase:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
Everything mentioned after those words is post-tribulation.
The description concerning the sun, moon, and stars - is in reality a 3.5-year period of time - that we call the Two Witnesses - after which occurs the Second Coming of Christ.
All of it is post-tribulation.
The tribulation ends at the start of the time of the Two Witnesses - the Second Coming occurs [at least] 3.5 years later...
Study it carefully.