Rapture True or False.

TMS · Apr 1, 2023

We may need to disagree. From all the verses and pieces put together it is clear that Jesus will come and it will be heard and seen by everyone.
When He comes He will gather the saved and they will go to Heaven to be with Jesus.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, it would not need to be shortened.

All the examples in the bible show Gods elect saved through tribulation not saved from it.

Who will be better prepared when that day comes?
Those that are prepared to go through the hard times with Jesus and by faith or those that think they wont need to face any hard times?

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

One more point....
The parable about storms and winds coming.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Notice that the same rain and floods and winds beat on both the wise and foolish houses.

If we are wise and have Jesus we will come through the tribulation stronger and closer to Jesus.

TMS · Apr 1, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

In Zech 14:5 saints can apply to Angels also.
Many Angels will come with Jesus when He returns.. there is no evedance that the saints are people that we back to heaven at a earlier time.

Phonetic: kaw-doshe'
BDB Definition: sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart
Origin: from H6942

Strong's Definition: From H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary: - holy (One), saint.

Evmur · Apr 1, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Post #5509

1 THESSALONIANS 4: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE IS A SOLID BIBLE DOCTRINE

A. GOD DOES NOT WANT CHRISTIANS TO BE IGNORANT REGARDING THE RAPTURE
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [Note: "asleep" means those who died in Christ]

B. THE RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS IS GUARANTEED
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Note: Christ will bring with Him from Heaven the souls and spirits of the saints who died in Christ. They will receive glorified bodies as noted in 1 Corinthians 15]

C. THE RESURRECTED SAINTS WILL PRECEDE THE RAPTURED SAINTS
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.

D. CHRIST WILL COME PERSONALLY FROM HEAVEN TO RECEIVE HIS BRIDE
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:...

E. THE RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS WILL TAKE PLACE FIRST
...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

F. THE RAPTURE WILL OCCUR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [Note: the raptured saints will also be perfect and receive glorified bodies at that time. See I Corinthians 15. All the saints will be taken to Heaven]

G. THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE IS TO COMFORT BELIEVERS
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I think I could scrape together a few reasons to argue against Dr. Walvoord

I will use only one for now

Jesus said "AFTER the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory ..."
Jesus was Post Trib.

cv5 · Apr 1, 2023

TMS said:

The_Watchers_2017 · Apr 1, 2023

cv5 said:

no one has actually proved it either. there is NO Scripture showing that Believers are not here during first couple years of Tribulation, you know Pre-WRATH!!

i believe we go BEFORE WRATH, not when Tribulation begins.
WE won't even know when Day ONE of Tribulation begins.
Bible does not even tell us we will KNOW this is Day ONE Tribulation.

so to make a Doctrine involving Tribulation itself is NON-BIBLICAL!
We're only promised to escape WRATH, that won't happen to about years 2 1/2 until the END.

Rapture happens Pre-WRATH, not pre-Tribulation 7 year period.
Rapture happens AFTER pre-Trib, but well BEFORE mid-Trib.

cv5 · Apr 1, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Yes they have, the links provided are OVERWHELMING proof of same.
Don't blame me for your laziness in not reviewing them.

The_Watchers_2017 · Apr 1, 2023

cv5 said:

that is not proof we're gone before day ONE of Tribulation, but it absolutely proves we're gone Pre-WRATH.

we won't even notice the difference between day BEFORE Tribulation and Day ONE of Tribulation and you have a Doctrine based upon Pre- something we have no Ability to be aware of when it, Day ONE of Tribulation, factually happens?

cv5 · Apr 1, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Friend......unless you are a mental giant like John von Neumann, it would take weeks for you to dutifully, scrupulously and legitimately examine the contents of those links, whereby you could elucidate upon a sound conclusion.

So by all means get back to us then.

The_Watchers_2017 · Apr 1, 2023

cv5 said:

i was raised pre-trib, been intimately familiar with the subject matter for over 40+ years. went to biblical institutions that teach on specific topics and dug deeper into that idealism of pre-trib. and all along, i noticed every Scripture referencing the Rapture had nothing to do with which Day the Tribulation begins on, nor any specific DAY other than it was before Believers faced LITERAL and ACTUAL WRATH.

your theory is hot air. Tribulation day one compared to year 4 will be nothing in comparison because the WRATH has been unleashed. we have no real enemy or WRATH until year 2+.

you need to rethink and toss out the word Tribulation and insert WRATH. Rapture happens at Pre-WRATH!

studentoftheword · Apr 1, 2023

Thread Title

Rapture True or False.

There is one rapture of the Believers ------so the rapture is truth -------and it happens before the 7 year tribulation ---

The tribulation is for unbelievers ----not believers ------that is my belief -----

Why would God allow His Children to go through the horror that He is bringing on this earth only to protect them through the 7 years as God has declared ---Promised in His Word -in ROMANS 8:!---that here is no Condemnation for those who have received Jesus as their Lord and saviour -------- and after the seven years is over Rapture His Saints up on His Second Coming only to bring them down again with angels to gather up more Saints that received Jesus during the Tribulation ----

So God had promised that there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who have received Jesus as their Lord ------

So this word condemnation means in the Greek --- in Romans 8:!

Cognate: 2631 katákrima (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying "the results of judgment") – properly, the exact sentence of condemnation handed down after due process (establishing guilt).
– properly, judge down, i.e. issue a penalty (exactly condemn)
damnatory sentence, condemnation: Romans 8:1.

So what does Judgment mean in Greek ------

Strong's Concordance
timóreó: to punish, avenge
to act as guardian with the authority to also mete out punishment (literally, assign due retribution) –
in the N. T. τιμώρω τινα, to take vengeance on one, to punish:

So WHY would God allow His Saints --His Children who have Received His Son and who are free of any punishment or Penalty or revenge go through the Judgment and penalty of the 7 Year tribulation ---which is for those who have not received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour -----when the Saints have been freed from that ------

What is the Purpose of the Saints going through the Judgment and penalty of the Tribulation ------Why would they be subjected to go through this ----??????????????????????????????????? ---when they are freed from --God's Judgment --penalty and revenge ------Sinners are under Condemnation not the Saints

What reason does God Have to avenge His Elect in the Tribulation ------their sins are forgiven -----they are Sanctified and Holy ----free from any punishment that God may inflict on Sinners --------

if God does allow His Holy Saints to endure the punishment ---penalty and revenge that He is bringing on Sinners of this earth --------- then God has made Romans 8:1 a Lie ------and if Romans 8:1 is a lie then the Bible is a lie ------

And that is all I have to say about that

like DR Jeremiah says in this Video --

I would rather see the Upper-Taker than the Undertaker ------

12 Min video ==worth the watch Folks
DR. DAVID JEREMIAH'S THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH | POWERFUL MESSAGE HIGHLIGHTS

GRACE_ambassador · Apr 1, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Not too sure if God Would Like His 5-Dozen + Plain and Clear Passages Called
"hot air" = you friend?:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
↑ this does contain our ↓ Judgment ↓ Seat Of Christ Within...
for our good/bad works opinion of His Pure And HOLY Words?

cv5 · Apr 1, 2023

cv5 said:

John von Neumann - Wikipedia

Child prodigy
Von Neumann was a child prodigy. When he was six years old, he could divide two eight-digit numbers in his head[35][36] and could converse in Ancient Greek. When the six-year-old von Neumann caught his mother staring aimlessly, he asked her, "What are you calculating?"

When they were young, von Neumann, his brothers and his cousins were instructed by governesses. Von Neumann's father believed that knowledge of languages other than their native Hungarian was essential, so the children were tutored in English, French, German and Italian.[38] By the age of eight, von Neumann was familiar with differential and integral calculus, and by twelve he had read and understood Borel's Théorie des Fonctions.[39] But he was also particularly interested in history. He read his way through Wilhelm Oncken's 46-volume world history series Allgemeine Geschichte in Einzeldarstellungen (General History in Monographs).[40] A copy was contained in a private library Max purchased. One of the rooms in the apartment was converted into a library and reading room, with bookshelves from ceiling to floor.

At the age of 15, he began to study advanced calculus under the renowned analyst Gábor Szegő.[43] On their first meeting, Szegő was so astounded with the boy's mathematical talent that he was brought to tears.

Von Neumann reportedly said, "So long as there is the possibility of eternal damnation for nonbelievers it is more logical to be a believer at the end," referring to Pascal's wager. He had earlier confided to his mother, "There probably has to be a God. Many things are easier to explain if there is than if there isn't."

studentoftheword · Apr 1, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

The Saints are given rewards ----as to their works -------there are 5 heavenly Crowns -----

The Crown of righteousness ---the imperishable Crown ----the Crown of rejoicing ---the Crown of Glory ----and the Crown of Life -----

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 1, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Consider what I put in the following two posts (re: the "wrath"):

Post #1202 (pg 61; different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/any-post-or-non-tribbers-in-here.204843/post-5046247

Post #1204 (follow-up comments) - https://christianchat.com/threads/any-post-or-non-tribbers-in-here.204843/post-5046320

The_Watchers_2017 said:

The word "tribulation" does, admittedly, throw many people off... As I see it, in view of my posts at links above, people should reconsider just "when" His "wrath" commences in the chronology... = )

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 1, 2023

^ and that's besides the fact that the 24 elders are saying "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY" when they are shown sitting on "thrones" and wearing "stephanous / crowns" [see "[awarded] IN THAT DAY" 2Tim4:8!], shown to be UP THERE *before* Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13) by His opening the first seal at the START of the 7-yr period (equivalent to the FIRST OF "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoken of in His Olivet Discourse)...

cv5 · Apr 1, 2023

TMS said:

See the 24 elders of Rev 4 & 5. That is us, pre-man of sin, pre-seals, pre-trib, pre-wrath, pre-everything from Rev 6 onward.

Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

GaryA · Apr 1, 2023

cv5 said:

Until you learn how to look up the correct word - so is yours...

GaryA · Apr 1, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Please see post #89.

cv5 · Apr 2, 2023

GaryA said:

What I "learned" is that your exegetical treatment was absurd and preposterous. Then I proved it was so in my reply.
So yeah you could say I was "learning" from your mistakes.....

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2023

GaryA said:

And what I'm pointing out is, pick one... either the RED or the BLUE... but not both red&blue... for the G1096 word.

Then, put whichever ONE you choose ^ beside the [other / distinct] words I'm pointing out ("en tachei / en taxei"--"in quickness" or "with speed" G1722 G5034 - NOUN)...

... and then see that the word "TO SHOW [unto]" also factors into this matter (because it's what's going to be "SHOW[n]" in this Book... starting in 4:1 "SHOW")...

--"...to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'become' in quickness / with speed..."

--"...to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'begin' in quickness / with speed..."

--"...to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'be fulfilled' in quickness / with speed..."

--"to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'come to pass' in quickness / with speed..."

It seems to me that according to your viewpoint, that pretty much the ONLY thing that John [or "His servants"] was going to be "SHOW[n]" by means of what John was given to disclose, is what must "BEGIN" the thing [whatever that thing is, which is "in quickness / with speed"], not anything else being involved in the "what things [must]" aspect. See what I mean?

[P.S. My view is that "[unto] His servants" ALSO INCLUDES "the 144,000 SERVANTS of our God" per Rev7:3... ; which corresponds also with the SEQUENCE ISSUES between Matt22:7 [70ad events] and Matt22:8 ["THEN SAITH HE to his servants"--AFTER the 70ad events... and Revelation [written 95ad] "fits" the bill nicely; the 144,000 do not yet exist on the earth, but WILL in/during the 7 Trib yrs, in their role...]

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