Rapture True or False.

TMS · Mar 31, 2023

The rapture. God law is, EVERYONE, has free will to do whatever they choose, provided it doesn’t harm anyone else. They and they only choose their path, and they and they only will make their decisions, from cradle to grave, period.

What I’m getting at is this, the rapture will not be automatic in selecting the ones being raptured, before anyone goes anywhere, they will be asked, to you want to go or stay on earth. Each and everyone will make that choice on their own. This is how free will works.

Whats so important about this end time choice, is your very soul depends on it. As Christian, we know that there will be two supernatural entities appear on earth in these latter days, both will claim to be Jesus Christ. The choice is yours and yours alone, which one will you choose to follow, the first or the second one that appears on earth. Your choice had better be right, to take part in the FIRST RESURRECTION. Get it wrong, it will be a 1000 years later, at the end of the millennium, before one get a chance at the SECOND RESURRECTION. Miss out here, it’s the lake of fire.

Ive said all this to educate, to get one to think about the seriousness of the choice coming up, that everyone will be forced to make, be it right or wrong. To make the wrong choice, one looses out on the highest honor flesh being can achieve, and that would be to take part in the first resurrection. I mention this to help, not hurt.

It says anti christ will deceive the whole world, Rev 12:9. Just shows how good he is in being deceitful. Many preachers and layman alike will fall victim. And let me stress, these are very God loving people. Who may have spent a life time in church, doing their best, but risk throwing it all away, here at the very last, just by possibly making the wrong choice. There are only two choices, do you choose to follow the first Christ, or do you choose to wait, and follow the second Christ. Sounds to simple, but it’s written, many will get it wrong.

You are teaching that we get a second chance if we miss out the first time.

The bible doesn't say we get a second chance.
In Noah's day the door closed and that was it. No second chance.
When probation closes it is finished everyone's case will have been forever decided.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

TMS · Mar 31, 2023

When i read the bible, i don't find God causing His remnant to disappear just before the hard times.

I do see God warning and preparing His people.
I do see God giving advice to His people.
I do see God targetting groups of people.

But the times of trouble came and the people of God were not raptured away. They escaped by following Gods council.

But i also see many that didn't escape the hard times.
Jeremiah, Joseph, John the baptist, and Jesus etc. Many were persecuted for righteousness sake.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

It is plain that the first resurrection happen when Jesus comes in Glory.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

TMS · Mar 31, 2023

If you build a doctrine on a foundation that is wrong the whole thing will be wrong.

The secret rapture, pretrib rapture is an invention of men

TMS · Mar 31, 2023

An invention of man.
According to most researchers, the idea of a Rapture-removal from planet Earth prior to a “great tribulation” period began to surface in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
VAgue mentions of it may have been published in the writings of a famous Calvinist theologian Dr. John Gill (1748), an early American Baptist pastor Morgan Edwards (1788), a Jesuit priest Emmanuel Lacunza (1812), and Edward Irving, who translated Lucunza’s book (1826).

JESUITS AND TEACHERS OF STRANGE DOCTINE ON THE RISE.

Most scholars, however, agree that the secret Rapture theory was launched into prominence around 1830 by a group of people in Scotland who had become known as the Plymouth Brethren. Under the direction of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) and others, they began to hold Prophetic Conferences.
I must note that many of the predictions failed.

Soon thereafter, Darby coupled this highly questionable vision of a secret, pre-tribulation Rapture with another idea originated by the Jesuit priest, Francisco Ribera. In 1585 A.D., Ribera was the first to introduce the idea of interrupting Daniel’s 70-week, end-time prophecy and inserting a “gap” between the 69th and 70th weeks.

Francisco Ribera was evil...research it yourself.

Ultimately, the truth can only be found in the Scriptures. But what began as a result of one woman’s private vision and charismatic utterance became widely taught, accepted as the truth, and popularized in the thinking of millions. It has become so deeply entrenched that many pastors and Christian leaders assume it is an essential teaching of Church history extending back to apostolic times. It is not. What’s more, it is not believed by the majority in the Church today, and with good reasons.

cv5 · Mar 31, 2023

TMS said:

An invention of man.
According to most researchers, the idea of a Rapture-removal from planet Earth prior to a “great tribulation” period began to surface in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
VAgue mentions of it may have been published in the writings of a famous Calvinist theologian Dr. John Gill (1748), an early American Baptist pastor Morgan Edwards (1788), a Jesuit priest Emmanuel Lacunza (1812), and Edward Irving, who translated Lucunza’s book (1826).

JESUITS AND TEACHERS OF STRANGE DOCTINE ON THE RISE.

Most scholars, however, agree that the secret Rapture theory was launched into prominence around 1830 by a group of people in Scotland who had become known as the Plymouth Brethren. Under the direction of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) and others, they began to hold Prophetic Conferences.
I must note that many of the predictions failed.

Soon thereafter, Darby coupled this highly questionable vision of a secret, pre-tribulation Rapture with another idea originated by the Jesuit priest, Francisco Ribera. In 1585 A.D., Ribera was the first to introduce the idea of interrupting Daniel’s 70-week, end-time prophecy and inserting a “gap” between the 69th and 70th weeks.

Francisco Ribera was evil...research it yourself.

Ultimately, the truth can only be found in the Scriptures. But what began as a result of one woman’s private vision and charismatic utterance became widely taught, accepted as the truth, and popularized in the thinking of millions. It has become so deeply entrenched that many pastors and Christian leaders assume it is an essential teaching of Church history extending back to apostolic times. It is not. What’s more, it is not believed by the majority in the Church today, and with good reasons.

Debunked already. Thanks to @TheDivineWatermark

These threads keep resurrecting the Darby straw man.

https://christianchat.com/posts/5034068/
https://christianchat.com/posts/5034089/

TMS · Mar 31, 2023

cv5 said:

It was the whole beginnings that have unscriptual teachings.

For example the history of Francisco Ribera, who made it his mission to confuse the protestant church's with false teachings to take the heat off the Catholic church.
Futurism was invented and is a big part of the doctrine you teach.

cv5 · Mar 31, 2023

TMS said:

Conspiracy hot air. Nothing more.

The FACTS are that the pre-trib rapture is boilerplate Biblical doctrine. Frankly.....beyond doubt.

Adstar · Mar 31, 2023

The Rapture is true..

The main disagreement is the timing of the rapture.. Not the rapture itself..

GaryA · Mar 31, 2023

cv5 said:

I do not have a problem - y'all do - y'all are "not listening"...

Y'all are too highly focused on the wrong word. The 'begin' does not come from G1722 G5034 - it comes from G1096.

From last month in a different thread:

Revelation 1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

Matthew 24:

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Despite what it seems like "on the surface" - if you will look very carefully at the Greek, I believe you will discover that what is being indicated in both of these verses is "begin to come to pass" / "begin to be fulfilled"...

What is indicated is not that each-and-every item in a list of things had fully occurred; rather, it is that the list of things began to occur.

GaryA · Mar 31, 2023

cv5 said:

"Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they have been taught." - (Author Unknown)

Believe it!

cv5 · Mar 31, 2023

GaryA said:

Been there done that......

GaryA · Mar 31, 2023

cv5 said:

I think you need to do some more...

cv5 · Mar 31, 2023

GaryA said:

Why would I abandon my house built upon the granite edifice of Biblical truth for a sad, shabby shack built upon the fickle shifting sand of your error?

Sorry buddy......but we cannot be roommates.

cv5 · Mar 31, 2023

GaryA said:

No. Just no.....
Your credibility is in the pits man.

The KJV translates Strong's G756 in the following manner: begin (83x), rehearse from the beginning (1x).
ἄρχομαι árchomai, ar'-khom-ahee; middle voice of G757 (through the implication, of precedence); to commence (in order of time):—(rehearse from the) begin(-ning).

γίνομαι gínomai, ghin'-om-ahee; a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):—arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, × soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrough

GRACE_ambassador · Mar 31, 2023

TMS said:

How has The Body Of Christ, for nearly 2000 years, disappeared before the 'hard
times' of martyrdom, trials, tribulations, suffering, persecution, and infirmities?

TMS said:

How is God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, an invention of man?:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

???

TMS · Mar 31, 2023

The Protestant apocalyptic interpretation of history which prophetically pinpointed step by step the events covering the whole Christian era from the beginning to the end (i.e. Historicism)

Contrary to Futurism and Preterism, all the classic Reformation confessions, creeds, covenants and catechisms are Historicist when dealing with eschatology.

It is generally recognized that Preterism was first systematized by the Roman Catholic Jesuit, Luis de Alcasar, in his commentary on Revelation (1614 a.d.). Alcasar applied the principles of Preterism to the Book of Revelation in identifying the Beast, the False Prophet and Mystery Babylon with past historical events in order to shield the papacy from the Protestant interpretive system (called "Historicism")

The futurist scheme, as I have elsewhere stated, was first, or nearly first, propounded about the year 1585 by the Jesuit Ribera; as the fittest one to turn aside the Protestant application of the Apocalyptic prophecy from the Church of Rome. (Like the preterist docteine)
When "Futurists" look at the book of Revelation, they see little or no prophetic fulfilments during the entire course of Christian history. In its modern form, almost everything is predicted to be fulfilled after the Rapture, after we're gone, with two of its primary characteristics being: 1) The belief in a single, future evil Antichrist person, and 2) the belief that prophecy will then centre around the literal Jewish nation with its supposedly rebuilt temple.

Knowing why and who invented these doctrines would make me question how true it is.

cv5 · Mar 31, 2023

TMS said:

The Protestant apocalyptic interpretation of history which prophetically pinpointed step by step the events covering the whole Christian era from the beginning to the end (i.e. Historicism)

Contrary to Futurism and Preterism, all the classic Reformation confessions, creeds, covenants and catechisms are Historicist when dealing with eschatology.

It is generally recognized that Preterism was first systematized by the Roman Catholic Jesuit, Luis de Alcasar, in his commentary on Revelation (1614 a.d.). Alcasar applied the principles of Preterism to the Book of Revelation in identifying the Beast, the False Prophet and Mystery Babylon with past historical events in order to shield the papacy from the Protestant interpretive system (called "Historicism")

The futurist scheme, as I have elsewhere stated, was first, or nearly first, propounded about the year 1585 by the Jesuit Ribera; as the fittest one to turn aside the Protestant application of the Apocalyptic prophecy from the Church of Rome. (Like the preterist docteine)
When "Futurists" look at the book of Revelation, they see little or no prophetic fulfilments during the entire course of Christian history. In its modern form, almost everything is predicted to be fulfilled after the Rapture, after we're gone, with two of its primary characteristics being: 1) The belief in a single, future evil Antichrist person, and 2) the belief that prophecy will then centre around the literal Jewish nation with its supposedly rebuilt temple.

Knowing why and who invented these doctrines would make me question how true it is.

Alright friend. So now that the scary Jesuit conspiracy theories are now out-of-the-way maybe you could crack open that Bible of yours and show us passages that prove something tangible. We want the bona fides.

TMS · Mar 31, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

They haven't disappeared.
Christ remnant have been persicuted in every age for the last 2000 year. Study history.

The catholic church burnt people for having a bible in their presence. And comunistic contries forced christians to give up their faith or die.

There has been much persecution for christians for the last 2000 years.

And there is nothing in the bible to say they will be taken out of the world before Christ comes.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 31, 2023

TMS said:

"Before Christ comes" -- as in the Second Coming of Christ -- He will come PERSONALLY for His Bride -- the Church -- at the Resurrection/Rapture. This will be at least seven years before the Second Coming of Christ, and these are two totally separate events.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that these two events are simultaneous. Indeed it would be laughable, since the Bride must first be in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb, before He comes to earth "with power and great glory" surrounded by the "clouds" of His saints and angels -- "the armies from Heaven". Those are not clouds of water vapor since they come directly from God's Heaven (not the atmospheric heaven). The saints and angels appear as bright, white, shining clouds because they are all dressed in white, and also radiating light.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)... And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15) [Note: "ten thousands" (plural) actually means "millions"]

Here the word "saints" could apply to both Christians and angels, since it is literally "holy ones" (ἁγίαις or hagiais). However other passages make it clear that Christ comes with both saints and angels "to execute judgment": And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5) Here Christ is called "the LORD my God" since His name is also YHWH (the LORD).

And notice what will happen to the Mount of Olives at that time: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zech 14:4)

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 31, 2023

TMS said:

I think you are confusing what happened in the events surrounding 70ad: (in Lk21:12-24, esp. vv.20 [THIS 'flee'] and 23b-24a, quoted in part below)
"...for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all the nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

... which whole section (vv.12-24a,b--70ad events) must take place (v.12a) "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs described in verses 8-11 (parallel Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8<--which are the "kick off" to the Day of the Lord / Tribulation Period ASPECT OF the DOTL [yet future], per 1Th5:1-3 and Paul speaking of its ARRIVAL point in time, being "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; i.e. Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "[G5100] A CERTAIN ONE"... bringing deception], of the BoBPs-plural Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and Lk21:8-11 [which v.12 of Lk21 states that "BEFORE ALL" those, the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b must take place first, BEFORE...])

Lk21:23b-24a's "in the land" and "upon this people" speaks specifically of Jerusalem / Israel and "this people" Israel (70ad events).

The "great distress" is not the same thing as what commences with the "beginning of birth pangs" which are the "SEALS" of Rev6, which take place in the "in quickness [noun]" time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is speaking about (i.e. the future, specific, LIMITED time-period that will unfold upon the earth [with its "judgments" unfolding upon the earth and its "man of sin"] LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 and the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age)

Rapture True or False.

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