Predestination is misunderstood...
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It's difficult to answer sometimes because of differences in understanding of terminology. For example, what is meant by total depravity? Total depravity simply means that as a result of the fall, every aspect of man was affected. That is, his heart, mind, and will were all corrupted from their original estate.
This is relatively easy to demonstrate from the actions of Adam and Eve post sin. The same God they had trusted and fellowshipped with they now questioned and drew away from. Since God hadn't changed, I think it safe to say the change occurred in Adam and Eve.
So what is the level of the corruption? Clearly their minds, hearts, and wills still function. But in what capacity? Their minds don't consider God the same way. Their hearts are toward themselves and their affections aren't toward God or each other as before. And this drives their wills or actions as they hide from God, cover themselves, and blame everyone but themselves.
The question then arises: can someone in this estate seek after God? And certainly on some level they can. And some do. Their hearts still function and they still have affections, but can they seek God with all their hearts? It is as one seeks God with all their heart that they will surely find Him. And I don't believe the heart of fallen man has this capability.
Another question arises: can fallen man understand the gospel and respond? Again, at some level yes. His mind still functions and it's not a terribly complicated message. But man's inclination now is to make himself approved of God in his own manner. Just as Adam and Eve covered themselves before God, I believe fallen man will always on some level cover themselves. We see it daily on this site. Yes Jesus, but also my adherence to the law.
So while what you have concluded in your 3 points does broadly outline what I believe, but without explanation it can easily be construed to mean other than I believe. The other questions you asked at tthe end evidence this. It's not that I think they are bad questions. In fact, I believe they are excellent questions. But they are also the inevitable questions posed because of misunderstanding driven by different understandings of a concept; in this case, depravity and what it entails.
It's natural to want to simplify things because it makes them more manageable. But in doing so, nuance and degree of accuracy are often casualties.
If you made it this far, my thanks. I know I didn't answer all your questions and am happy to do so. I thought it best to begin with what actually undergirds my beliefs before moving forward.
This is relatively easy to demonstrate from the actions of Adam and Eve post sin. The same God they had trusted and fellowshipped with they now questioned and drew away from. Since God hadn't changed, I think it safe to say the change occurred in Adam and Eve.
So what is the level of the corruption? Clearly their minds, hearts, and wills still function. But in what capacity? Their minds don't consider God the same way. Their hearts are toward themselves and their affections aren't toward God or each other as before. And this drives their wills or actions as they hide from God, cover themselves, and blame everyone but themselves.
The question then arises: can someone in this estate seek after God? And certainly on some level they can. And some do. Their hearts still function and they still have affections, but can they seek God with all their hearts? It is as one seeks God with all their heart that they will surely find Him. And I don't believe the heart of fallen man has this capability.
Another question arises: can fallen man understand the gospel and respond? Again, at some level yes. His mind still functions and it's not a terribly complicated message. But man's inclination now is to make himself approved of God in his own manner. Just as Adam and Eve covered themselves before God, I believe fallen man will always on some level cover themselves. We see it daily on this site. Yes Jesus, but also my adherence to the law.
So while what you have concluded in your 3 points does broadly outline what I believe, but without explanation it can easily be construed to mean other than I believe. The other questions you asked at tthe end evidence this. It's not that I think they are bad questions. In fact, I believe they are excellent questions. But they are also the inevitable questions posed because of misunderstanding driven by different understandings of a concept; in this case, depravity and what it entails.
It's natural to want to simplify things because it makes them more manageable. But in doing so, nuance and degree of accuracy are often casualties.
If you made it this far, my thanks. I know I didn't answer all your questions and am happy to do so. I thought it best to begin with what actually undergirds my beliefs before moving forward.
Funny along the peculiar vein how people argue against this. I think it may in part simply be a knee-jerk reaction to the thought of them selves being depraved. Ever. As if they were not. Or they terribly misconstrue the meaning of men being evil to mean nobody in the state of unbelief can ever do a good thing even though without faith it is impossible to please God. And God alone is good. So Scripture is actually thrown over in a number of ways to reject the total depravity of man. Even though it is presented as a major point in not only Calvinism and Arminianism, but also Molinism, though the wording may be slightly altered, such as radical depravity instead of total.
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Often by total depravity is meant total inability: that a person is not able to be justified by believing God without God supernaturally acting first upon the person to make them able to believe God. This leads to the proposition of unconditional election, on the basis that, if not everyone does believe, God must therefore have chosen to withhold something from the ones who could not believe, something that He must have chosen to give to the ones who were able to believe.
If total depravity means "every aspect of an unregenerate human being falls short of perfection, but not so as to prevent her from using her native faculties to hear from God and to believe that message from Him, then that would conform to scripture. But that is not what most people who agree with total depravity mean by total depravity. The problem with total inability is that scripture does not teach it.
If total depravity means "every aspect of an unregenerate human being falls short of perfection, but not so as to prevent her from using her native faculties to hear from God and to believe that message from Him, then that would conform to scripture. But that is not what most people who agree with total depravity mean by total depravity. The problem with total inability is that scripture does not teach it.
I believe after speaking personaly with someone who claimed it was a Mormonism belief, and he himself said he was of the Mormon faith, then went on to tell me, we all have spirit that has lived in a heavenly realm first, and we have all been cast down to earth to be refined.
So I'm sure it's some kind of belief centre upon the belief that genesis says are soul is created in heaven.
But I'm sure it stems from people not interpreting genesis 1, which says and man became a living soul.
It's interpreted by people as God breathed a living soul into man, which is a wrong understanding I believe.
So I'm sure it's some kind of belief centre upon the belief that genesis says are soul is created in heaven.
But I'm sure it stems from people not interpreting genesis 1, which says and man became a living soul.
It's interpreted by people as God breathed a living soul into man, which is a wrong understanding I believe.
Would it not be easier to conclude That God
Imprisoned his own will within man.
Meaning before the fall, Gods will in man was innocent and free to choose, and it was his will that was in man in his image.
Only after the fall, God then imprisoned his own will in man, and was no longer free to choose his will.
Then the question God is all knowing, why would he allow this.
Well maybe man live in the same time as God, before the fall, and after the fall, he set man outside of his time.
Imprisoned his own will within man.
Meaning before the fall, Gods will in man was innocent and free to choose, and it was his will that was in man in his image.
Only after the fall, God then imprisoned his own will in man, and was no longer free to choose his will.
Then the question God is all knowing, why would he allow this.
Well maybe man live in the same time as God, before the fall, and after the fall, he set man outside of his time.
Romans 3:10-12
Also the tenses of the verbs there impact thr meaning of the text. E.g. "There is none that is understanding and keeps on understanding" does not mean that no one ever understands. "There is none that is doing and keeps on doing good" does not men that no one ever does good.
can you explain how man was created with a will independent to Gods will.
I really do think this is the connection that everyone is so not able to comprehend.
Thats mans will was more in line with God's will before fall , which was the will God has placed in man was, innocent and free to choose, providing it was in accordance with God's will.
Only man never did that. So then God imprisoned his own will within man,
I really do think this is the connection that everyone is so not able to comprehend.
Thats mans will was more in line with God's will before fall , which was the will God has placed in man was, innocent and free to choose, providing it was in accordance with God's will.
Only man never did that. So then God imprisoned his own will within man,
Already addressed. The good man does without -or aside from- faith is incapable of saving man from
his sinful nature, and/or delivering salvation. Read in context against the message of the greater
whole, Scripture makes clear that God moves first and devoid of that, man would not and does not
because of his sin nature, which renders him hostile toward God and in fact, God's enemy.
his sinful nature, and/or delivering salvation. Read in context against the message of the greater
whole, Scripture makes clear that God moves first and devoid of that, man would not and does not
because of his sin nature, which renders him hostile toward God and in fact, God's enemy.
would it be a reasonable to suggest that this will was completely free in man before the fall.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
James 4:15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
1 John 5:14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Philippians 2:13 For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
James 4:15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
1 John 5:14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
