Poll about how you see predestination/freewill
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Useful stuff . I think by seeing how God deals with man can help us grasp it
“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven:
His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
Psalm 11:4 KJV
“And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.”
Genesis 11:4-8
see if it’s not thier will but Gods being imposed on them none of this makes sense at all in how he deals with the people. To solve the problem tbey we’re becoming he co founda tbier soeech so they can’t communicate effectively , he does this because they are doing something he doesn’t want them to do. So to stop them from doing it he co founds thier language and scatters then about the earth so they can’t work together against his Will.
to me we can learn from his relationship to mankind in accounts like this. And so many others
But also just the dynamic of God watching mankind and keeping account of what they do intervening at times it more times just observing for the day of judgement what man does and says
things like that really say a lot about who’s Will man is operating within
“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven:
His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
Psalm 11:4 KJV
“And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.”
Genesis 11:4-8
see if it’s not thier will but Gods being imposed on them none of this makes sense at all in how he deals with the people. To solve the problem tbey we’re becoming he co founda tbier soeech so they can’t communicate effectively , he does this because they are doing something he doesn’t want them to do. So to stop them from doing it he co founds thier language and scatters then about the earth so they can’t work together against his Will.
to me we can learn from his relationship to mankind in accounts like this. And so many others
But also just the dynamic of God watching mankind and keeping account of what they do intervening at times it more times just observing for the day of judgement what man does and says
things like that really say a lot about who’s Will man is operating within
Yes, and I wonder if the most important part of your post was Gen. 11:5-6, "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
This seems to be happening again in the guise of AI with one computer language.
I wonder what the Lord will do this time.
This seems to be happening again in the guise of AI with one computer language.
I wonder what the Lord will do this time.
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Joshua Chapter 24:
14Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
John, Chapter 3:
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
14Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
John, Chapter 3:
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- The future is partly open, not fully settled—because free creatures haven’t made all their choices yet.
- This view maintains God’s omniscience, but argues that knowing possibilities, not certainties, about future free actions is consistent with divine perfection.
It seems to me that God constantly warns people of the consequence of rejecting Him. God warned Israel countless times and eventually Israel was driven from the lands they were supposed to conquer. God has been speaking to the whole world for 2,000 years. In spite of this, even supposedly Christian nations are turning away from Christian values and embracing evil. Worse, those who speak out against evil are being punished, slandered and oppressed.
Lord Jesus said that judgement will come. 2,000 years is like two days to God. Lord Jesus warned that it will be like the days of Noah.
The world blames everything but itself for "natural" disasters. I believe God is speaking through earthquakes, floods, terrible storms, volcanic eruptions, drought, tsunamis and the like. Even some supposed Christians are rebelling against God's ways. One Baptist church near me now states homosexuality is not sinful. The Church of Christ and others adopted that position years ago. When the church loses the plot, what hope has the world got?
God will speak right up to the time He removes the church from this world. Then the tribulation years will begin. For those who survive, 7 years will seem like an eternity. When will this take place? I don't know. I can't see the world surviving much longer. No doubt Christians have said this countless times in the past. One day, we have to be right!
Lord Jesus said that judgement will come. 2,000 years is like two days to God. Lord Jesus warned that it will be like the days of Noah.
The world blames everything but itself for "natural" disasters. I believe God is speaking through earthquakes, floods, terrible storms, volcanic eruptions, drought, tsunamis and the like. Even some supposed Christians are rebelling against God's ways. One Baptist church near me now states homosexuality is not sinful. The Church of Christ and others adopted that position years ago. When the church loses the plot, what hope has the world got?
God will speak right up to the time He removes the church from this world. Then the tribulation years will begin. For those who survive, 7 years will seem like an eternity. When will this take place? I don't know. I can't see the world surviving much longer. No doubt Christians have said this countless times in the past. One day, we have to be right!
I disagree. This is the calvies premise and most play along with it. It is not about individual salvation or specific salvation.
Predestination is about THE CHURCH and what it is predestined to.
He foreknew the Church and it is predestined to be conformed to His image through adoption.(and many more Grace gifts.)
Those who believe on the Lord Jesus will be saved.
Predestination is about THE CHURCH and what it is predestined to.
He foreknew the Church and it is predestined to be conformed to His image through adoption.(and many more Grace gifts.)
Those who believe on the Lord Jesus will be saved.
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I don't know how you read that into Romans 8:29. We are called individually to be the church, not as the church. "Those" refers to individuals.
Many will testify as to God's working in their lives prior to salvation. I'm one. I should not have survived childhood. I suffered whooping cough as a toddler. I contracted dysentery also when I was very young. Some occult relatives sought a "guardian angel" to help me while my dad fought in Korea. I had terrifying nightmares. A Christian family moved next door and the "angel" departed, throwing a book at us as it left.
When I was 12, there was a family issue that troubled me greatly. My knowledge of God was Sunday school level, but I prayed. God answered in a way that had to be a miracle. I tried to dismiss it anyway.
I met many Christians at work (I started when I was 15) and I went to a Billy Graham crusade a year later. That was mostly curiosity. About 5 years later, my Christian boss witnessed to me and I was born again that evening.
I cannot but believe that God was at work in my life from my birth. Why? Because He foreknew that I would believe eventually.
Many will testify as to God's working in their lives prior to salvation. I'm one. I should not have survived childhood. I suffered whooping cough as a toddler. I contracted dysentery also when I was very young. Some occult relatives sought a "guardian angel" to help me while my dad fought in Korea. I had terrifying nightmares. A Christian family moved next door and the "angel" departed, throwing a book at us as it left.
When I was 12, there was a family issue that troubled me greatly. My knowledge of God was Sunday school level, but I prayed. God answered in a way that had to be a miracle. I tried to dismiss it anyway.
I met many Christians at work (I started when I was 15) and I went to a Billy Graham crusade a year later. That was mostly curiosity. About 5 years later, my Christian boss witnessed to me and I was born again that evening.
I cannot but believe that God was at work in my life from my birth. Why? Because He foreknew that I would believe eventually.
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I would agree with you, if you mean by "Church", the Universal Church that Christ is building.
For the Church is not a building. It is not an institution. It is not a man or a particular teacher. The Greek word translated Church, would be better translated "ASSEMBLY'. It simply means - where a group of believers come together. This could be anywhere. However, the "Universal Assembly", is every member (Believer), that will make up the completed Assembly of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:4)
Having said the above.. of course Rom. 8:28 is dealing with individuals. Individuals, Predestined to be fitted into that Universal Assembly were placed into His Son, by the Father, before the foundation of the world. All believers are Predestined - O.T. and N.T. believers - who are then Redeemed by Christ's Person and Work.
The confusion for most, in understanding this Doctrine of Salvation, stems not from Predestination or Election but from not knowing what to do with the subject of Regeneration. Most know what Conversion is but few really understand Regeneration and most Churches today do not teach it. I have had Pastors tell me, that they don't teach it because there congregation would not understand it. Sad is it not?
For the Church is not a building. It is not an institution. It is not a man or a particular teacher. The Greek word translated Church, would be better translated "ASSEMBLY'. It simply means - where a group of believers come together. This could be anywhere. However, the "Universal Assembly", is every member (Believer), that will make up the completed Assembly of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:4)
Having said the above.. of course Rom. 8:28 is dealing with individuals. Individuals, Predestined to be fitted into that Universal Assembly were placed into His Son, by the Father, before the foundation of the world. All believers are Predestined - O.T. and N.T. believers - who are then Redeemed by Christ's Person and Work.
The confusion for most, in understanding this Doctrine of Salvation, stems not from Predestination or Election but from not knowing what to do with the subject of Regeneration. Most know what Conversion is but few really understand Regeneration and most Churches today do not teach it. I have had Pastors tell me, that they don't teach it because there congregation would not understand it. Sad is it not?
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- Arminianism: God gives free will; salvation is available to all, but people can reject it.
- Molinism: God knows all possible choices (via "middle knowledge") and sovereignly arranges the world without overriding free will.
- Open Theism: God knows everything knowable, but the future is partly open because humans have real freedom.
- Calvinism: God predestines everything, including who will be saved; human will is subordinate to God's sovereignty.
The difference between Open theism and the other three isms is due to their different understanding of time. Arminianism, Calvinism and Molinism all begin with a B-Block or B-theory of time, whereas Open Theism begins with an A-Block or A-theory of time. Applying these different theories to the Bible produces different understandings of God and the way He interacts with His creatures.
This is what Google AI summarises as the A-theory vs. the B-theory of time.
"
The A-block view of time, often called "A-theory," holds that the present is a special, unique moment, while past and future are secondary or even nonexistent. In contrast, the B-block view, or "B-theory," treats all moments equally, with the past, present, and future existing on the same footing. The A-theory emphasizes the dynamic, flowing nature of time, while the B-theory views time as a static, four-dimensional block.
A-theory (A-block view):
This is what Google AI summarises as the A-theory vs. the B-theory of time.
"
The A-block view of time, often called "A-theory," holds that the present is a special, unique moment, while past and future are secondary or even nonexistent. In contrast, the B-block view, or "B-theory," treats all moments equally, with the past, present, and future existing on the same footing. The A-theory emphasizes the dynamic, flowing nature of time, while the B-theory views time as a static, four-dimensional block.
A-theory (A-block view):
- Emphasizes the present:
The present is considered the only moment that genuinely exists, with past and future being either illusions or not existing at all.
- Focuses on temporal passage:
A-theorists believe in the "becoming" and "progressing" of time, where the present is constantly changing.
- Often associated with presentism:
Presentism, a specific version of A-theory, argues that only the present exists, with the past and future having no ontological reality.
- May be more intuitive:
The A-theory's emphasis on the present aligns with our everyday experience of time.
- Treats all moments equally:
The past, present, and future are all considered to exist on the same plane.
- Views time as a static block:
Time is seen as a four-dimensional block of space-time, with no privileged moment.
- May be seen as less intuitive:
The B-theory's static view of time can be counterintuitive to our everyday experience of time flowing.
- Often associated with eternalism:
Eternalism, a specific version of B-theory, argues that all times exist equally. "
The Bible is not about us. It is about HIM.
Sad that most of us can't see this truth.
The Calvies focus on the creature......We can't believe, we are scum and totally depraved.
The armies focus on the creature.......We can believe, we are scum and can lose HIS salvation.
The Lord Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again for us....The WHOLE WORLD.
Anyone can believe. And No one can lose HIS salvation.
Sad that most of us can't see this truth.
The Calvies focus on the creature......We can't believe, we are scum and totally depraved.
The armies focus on the creature.......We can believe, we are scum and can lose HIS salvation.
The Lord Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again for us....The WHOLE WORLD.
Anyone can believe. And No one can lose HIS salvation.
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What do you mean by "non-systematic"?
Do you think that whether a person holds an A-theory of time or a B-theory of time (see post #56) will affect the coherence/incoherence of their ideas about God and the way He relates to mankind over time? Which theory of time best fits with the way Biblical authors speak?
Do you think that whether a person holds an A-theory of time or a B-theory of time (see post #56) will affect the coherence/incoherence of their ideas about God and the way He relates to mankind over time? Which theory of time best fits with the way Biblical authors speak?
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