Poll about how you see predestination/freewill

[GWH]

Do you believe that we have free will, in the sense that each person has the ability to choose what one desires? I believe all are, before God's effectual grace is displayed in their lives, are not even able to choose God for they are not even able to choose to not sin. Does this negate free will? No.

Having believed in God and Jesus from infancy and associated only with Christians at church rather than school functions,
I was chagrined to encounter atheism for the first meaningful time as a senior in HS, so my amazement was at the ability to choose NOT to believe in God--and my ministry has been oriented toward apologetics--as can be seen in lesson 1 of the website
<truthseekersfellowship.com>

Not sure if that answered your question.

 

[sawdust]

So you take it as some kind of limitation on God's power that He is unable to create living creatures who are able to make decisions only when controlled by God? .

No.

Go read my post again and ask yourself did you decide to be born in the Church age in what ever country reside? Did you decide as a believer that you would be given the Holy Spirit as a seal of your salvation? Along with all the other decisions God decided in regards to believers throughout the age.

God does not decide who believes, He decides how you are to work out the salvation He has given us and where and when we will do it. None of us decided that.

 

[Kroogz]

None of the above as predestination has nothing to do with man's free will. Predestination is God deciding what to do with believers; where and when to put them, how they are to work out the salvation they are given ie by conscience, Law (Torah) or the Spirit. Man has no part in that decision making process.

Worthy to repost.

 

[posthuman]

i consider it sound advice. whenever clear knowledge is hidden, if you have to choose, take the opinion that maximizes the glory of God.


it is better to assume He is greater, wiser and more powerful than He really is, and discover God is smaller than you thought, than to presume He is the contrary.


so what i believe is closer to Calvin's thoughts ((which are not what is today called calvinism oddly enough)) because they maintain above all else God's sovereignty, while the other poll choices sacrifice so me amount of His power and authority to the altar of human volition.


anytime i am presented with any doctrinal crossroad emphasizing human glory vs divine, the answer of which is closer to The Truth, to me seems abundantly clear.

God has all glory ​

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[Gideon300]

The Context. Context.

THOSE(the Church) whom He foreknew.

He is Not talking about Kroogz specifically. (we both know He could)

Kroogz believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation......As a part of the Church, I am predestined to be conformed to His image++++++

It is not about our specific salvation, that is what the calvies want us to believe.

Paul did not say, "The church". That's your wrong interpretation. God does not save the "church". He saves individuals that become the church. We are living stones, not an amorphous mass. When we are judged, it will be as individuals, not as "the church".

Your argument is specious and has no point to it. What are you trying to prove?

 

[Kroogz]

I was chagrined to encounter atheism for the first meaningful time as a senior in HS, so my amazement was at the ability to choose NOT to believe in God

Wow. This explains a lot of your posts. Sheltered to a fault.

 

[Kroogz]

Paul did not say, "The church". That's your wrong interpretation. God does not save the "church". He saves individuals that become the church. We are living stones, not an amorphous mass. When we are judged, it will be as individuals, not as "the church".

Your argument is specious and has no point to it. What are you trying to prove?

So you see no distinction from Israel and the Church?

Israel is promised to be conformed to His image? To be adopted?

 

[Kroogz]

No.

Go read my post again and ask yourself did you decide to be born in the Church age in what ever country reside? Did you decide as a believer that you would be given the Holy Spirit as a seal of your salvation? Along with all the other decisions God decided in regards to believers throughout the age.

God does not decide who believes, He decides how you are to work out the salvation He has given us and where and when we will do it. None of us decided that.

Another post worthy to repeat.

 

[Magenta]

…4 Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be proved right when You speak and blameless when You judge. 5 Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me. 6Surely You desire truth in the inmost being; You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.…
(Psalm 51:4-6)

This is not to be taken literally but should be understood to mean that "we sin as soon as we are capable of thought and choice.


When David said he was "evil at CONCEPTION" we are not to take this literally since the prophets and Jesus Himself said that children are INNOCENT. We become sinful as soon as we become capable of understanding and choosing. Jesus said of children:
(Luke 18:15-17)

And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
(Matthew 18:2-5)

And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are CONVERTED AND BECOME LIKE CHILDREN, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven
(Matthew 19:13-14)
By contrast, Reformed teacher Voddie Baucham has called human infants "children vipers in diapers." Who is right Jesus or the Reformed teachers?

The Bible speaks clearly that infant which die at birth are INNOCENT
"In the Old Testament, the shedding of innocent blood is explicitly condemned and is often associated with acts of violence, murder, and injustice. The law given to Israel through Moses underscores the gravity of such acts. In the Old Testament, the shedding of innocent blood is explicitly condemned and is often associated with acts of violence, murder, and injustice. The law given to Israel through Moses underscores the gravity of such acts
(Deuteronomy 19:10).

A Parallel passage to this is Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Do the unborn or newly born literally GO ASTRAY at birth, speaking lies? I admit I never saw a newborn infant speaking.

I admit I have never seen an age of accountability given, though many attempt it. One of the ways we are
to understand being as little children is in regards to trusting God as our loving Father, though surely other
layers are present, and children do need to be trained up in the way they should go, as Scriptures say.

“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. Mark ch. 10 verse 18 and Luke ch. 18 verse 19 “There is only One who is good.” Matthew ch. 19 verse 17b. There is no one who does good. fr Psalm ch. 14. There is no one righteous, not even one. Romans ch. 3 verse 10. They are corrupt; their ways are vile. There is no one who does good. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. fr Psalm ch. 53 verses 1-3. Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Ecclesiastes ch. 7 verse 20. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[wattie]

Hey yall, lets get this poll going I wanna see what you guys are gonna vote. I wont include the "other" option because so many would vote for it, even though they for sure are somewhat close to one of the mentioned views.

Neither calvinist nor Armenian = salvation is by free will..but it can't be undone.

 

[Gideon300]

So you see no distinction from Israel and the Church?

Israel is promised to be conformed to His image? To be adopted?

You have not answered my question.

 

[sawdust]

Is there Scripture that says this? Or is this a man-made doctrine based on someone's interpretation of Scripture?

I don't know about those terms but there is scripture to show God's will is expressed in what He wants, what He allows man to do with conditions attached (in spite of it not being what He wants) and there is what God allows man to do but will override his attempts if he tries to go beyond His stated conditions. It's all in the story of Balaam, Numbers 22.

God wanted Balaam to stay put. (God's expressed will)
Balaam wanted to go, most likely for the money, so God let Him go with stipulations applied. (God's permissive will)
Balaam wanted to curse Israel but found he couldn't speak anything but blessing. (God's over-riding will)

 

[Hakawaka]

Neither calvinist nor Armenian = salvation is by free will..but it can't be undone.

That is inconsistent and incoherent. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Sloppy and unsystematic theology

 

[GWH]

Wow. This explains a lot of your posts. Sheltered to a fault.

Sheltered yes, but I think fairly close to God's plan A for parenting.
What was your upbringing like?

 

[Melach]

i consider it sound advice. whenever clear knowledge is hidden, if you have to choose, take the opinion that maximizes the glory of God.


it is better to assume He is greater, wiser and more powerful than He really is, and discover God is smaller than you thought, than to presume He is the contrary.


so what i believe is closer to Calvin's thoughts ((which are not what is today called calvinism oddly enough)) because they maintain above all else God's sovereignty, while the other poll choices sacrifice so me amount of His power and authority to the altar of human volition.


anytime i am presented with any doctrinal crossroad emphasizing human glory vs divine, the answer of which is closer to The Truth, to me seems abundantly clear.

God has all glory ​

​

​

​

amen. i voted for calvinism but i hate the term. because i disagree with calvin on many things and have never read his writings. but i know he believed in infant baptism, i dont. he was a cessationist, i am not.

my authority is not calvin or arminius or greg boyd. it is the scriptures. and the holy scriptures teach that God has indeed predestined us to adoption. thanks be to God, all glory to Him. i am happy.

oh yeah. i forgot to mention that calvin got a lot of his quotes from augustine. so you could call it augustinianism as well. i choose to call it the plain reading of scripture

 

[wattie]

That is inconsistent and incoherent. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Sloppy and unsystematic theology

Okay.. well.. we have all thru the book of John..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. There's your freewill to be saved.

Then in the same book..plus numerous other verses we have that salvation being permanent and eternal.

That's not pure Calvinism or Arminianism

 

[GWH]

That is inconsistent and incoherent. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Sloppy and unsystematic theology

Oh hak, my "both-and" hermeneutic is not systematic?
Oops!

 

[Melach]

There are a number of Pelagian heretics here. You could have included that option on your poll...

many people claim to be classical arminians but are actually pelagians. they wont talk about original sin or depravity, people can just choose to move their brain muscles and believe the gospel.

 

[Magenta]

many people claim to be classical arminians but are actually pelagians. they wont talk about
original sin or depravity, people can just choose to move their brain muscles and believe the gospel.

I see very few actually saying they are Arminian, but they have no trouble throwing pejoratives around to labeling people what they are not, as they repeatedly try to smash a square peg into a round hole all while refusing to deal with a plethora of Scriptures that throw over their pet fantasy of free will... a multiplicity of verses from beginning to end of Scriptures that they brush aside, ignore, contradict, and outright deny in preference for their man made tradition and false doctrine. And yes, you are right, some also claim Adam's sin had no bearing on humanity, and they love their knee jerk reactions to the word depravity so they can continue pretending that Arminianism, Molinsim, Calvinism, etc, all teach man's inability = depravity. But, in their theology, the person who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness, who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, just decides of their own volition to believe that which they hear as foolishness, in spite of the fact that their stony heart is not good ground for bringing forth the fruit of faith, and Jesus said a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Oh, well, they care not, they seem to shrug and say, meh, the natural man is not such a bad guy, you have it all wrong, only ancient Israelites were bad guys. Yes, a good look around the world today we can see how good mankind is.... NOT.

PS always lovely to see you!

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.