Pentecostal Church?
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yes, understanding of Scripture.
but Verse 7 is about the things God ordained before the Foundations of the Earth.
think of it like Isaiah explains, God is a God, the only God, who knows the END from the Beginning. and from the End towards the beginning, God is working ALL things for those that love Him.
and the Church Fathers tells us the Gifts will be here until that [which is PREFECT] when we see God face to face. since that's not happened yet, Perfect has not come.
the debate is Tongues ends when that which is PERFECT has come.
i tend to use resources closest to the source like the Church Fathers who chose to write about this.
Irenaeus:
As therefore, when that which is perfect is come, we shall not see another Father, but Him who we now desire to see [12]
Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus
Clement of Alexander:
to' teaelov is the believer's state when he see's God
Origen:
combines Verse 12 with 10 when we see Jesus [face to face]
Eusebius:
The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic Gifts should continue in all the Church until the final Coming of Jesus
Archelaus:
"the perfect" is Jesus
Methodius:
the return of Christ and events associated with it
Ambrose:
when we are face to face with God
Jerome:
when we see the Glory of the Lord
Leo the Great:
when we see God as He really is
so as we see, the Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].
none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.
the debate is Tongues ends when that which is PERFECT has come.
i tend to use resources closest to the source like the Church Fathers who chose to write about this.
Irenaeus:
As therefore, when that which is perfect is come, we shall not see another Father, but Him who we now desire to see [12]
Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus
Clement of Alexander:
to' teaelov is the believer's state when he see's God
Origen:
combines Verse 12 with 10 when we see Jesus [face to face]
Eusebius:
The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic Gifts should continue in all the Church until the final Coming of Jesus
Archelaus:
"the perfect" is Jesus
Methodius:
the return of Christ and events associated with it
Ambrose:
when we are face to face with God
Jerome:
when we see the Glory of the Lord
Leo the Great:
when we see God as He really is
so as we see, the Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].
none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.
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Yes and as I said, Paul tells us what the mystery is. Jesus. That Jesus he would redeem his children, and not only that the whole cosmos. Paul's tells us twice what the hidden mystery is he speaks of.
What we are called to be is no longer a mystery its no longer hidden, we are to be conformed to Christ.. To put it an easier way..
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercede for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined(BH) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified;those he justified, he also glorified.
Listen to yourself. You're talking about God like He's a genie in bottle you rub the right way and He'll perform for you; or a vending machine you put the right change into and push the right buttons to get a result.
There's no magic formula that will make Him perform for us. I know, Word of Faith says there is, but they neither understand His word nor obey it.
There's no magic formula that will make Him perform for us. I know, Word of Faith says there is, but they neither understand His word nor obey it.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
...
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
...
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Wow! If I may.
Screaming at someone who holds nothing,nothing,but contempt for you and Pentecostalism isn't going to lead them to change.
They're showing you by their behaviors what they are.
And what they are not.
You don't lead people to Christ. No one does. God calls whom he will to his Salvation.
We who are his already only lead by example. God does the work.
Those who are not his lead by example.
They show us what it looks like when God does not know their name.
Take a deeeeeeeep breath. Hold it.
Let it out.
And move on. 💕✝️😔
this is what i have to say to give my closing thoughts here:
look at the Church Fathers:
Irenaeus:
As therefore, when that which is perfect is come, we shall not see another Father, but Him who we now desire to see [12]
Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus
Clement of Alexander:
to' teaelov is the believer's state when he see's God
Origen:
combines Verse 12 with 10 when we see Jesus [face to face]
Eusebius:
The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic Gifts should continue in all the Church until the final Coming of Jesus
Archelaus:
"the perfect" is Jesus
Methodius:
the return of Christ and events associated with it
Ambrose:
when we are face to face with God
Jerome:
when we see the Glory of the Lord
Leo the Great:
when we see God as He really is
so as we see, the Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].
if they are correct, then what i am saying is correct.
so, to prove me incorrect, PROVE the Church Father's incorrect!
look at the Church Fathers:
Irenaeus:
As therefore, when that which is perfect is come, we shall not see another Father, but Him who we now desire to see [12]
Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus
Clement of Alexander:
to' teaelov is the believer's state when he see's God
Origen:
combines Verse 12 with 10 when we see Jesus [face to face]
Eusebius:
The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic Gifts should continue in all the Church until the final Coming of Jesus
Archelaus:
"the perfect" is Jesus
Methodius:
the return of Christ and events associated with it
Ambrose:
when we are face to face with God
Jerome:
when we see the Glory of the Lord
Leo the Great:
when we see God as He really is
so as we see, the Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].
if they are correct, then what i am saying is correct.
so, to prove me incorrect, PROVE the Church Father's incorrect!
[QUOTE="The_Watchers_2017, post: 4892598, member: 316734]
none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.[/QUOTE]
That's the continuists interpretation. And you have added or as quite often continuists add in tongues in this passage. Anyhow....
Also, and interestingly, continuists and cessationists would generally agree that when the perfect comes is referring to the parousia. So that point doesn't help with your argument.
To further press the
issue. How would you exegete "in part" and 'perfect'? What do they mean in context. Tongues is something you have added to the text.
Anyhow bed time Watchers... Enjoy the rest of your evening👍
none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.[/QUOTE]
That's the continuists interpretation. And you have added or as quite often continuists add in tongues in this passage. Anyhow....
Also, and interestingly, continuists and cessationists would generally agree that when the perfect comes is referring to the parousia. So that point doesn't help with your argument.
To further press the
issue. How would you exegete "in part" and 'perfect'? What do they mean in context. Tongues is something you have added to the text.
Anyhow bed time Watchers... Enjoy the rest of your evening👍