Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[John146]

John 15:-5-6

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

The body of Christ has not even begun yet in John 15. Jesus is talking to his disciples. Context is key.

 

[John146]

The Holy Spirit is Salvation. If we have the Holy Spirit, we have Salvation. If we die having the Holy Spirit, we go to Heaven. But we can lose the Holy Spirit by serious and willful sins. There are many examples of this in the Gospels and elsewhere.

Take the Kings of Israel: Saul, David and Solomon. Did they lose the Holy Spirit at any point in their lives. Saul almost certainly did. David did when he sinned but then received Him back and was saved. Solomon too. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit would not have inspired King David to write: "10Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.11Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.12Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.13Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you." (Psa 51).

King David confessed and repented of his sin, and he was forgiven as it says in 2 Chron 7:14 as well as 1 Jn 1:9.

In the NT, we see numerous examples, from Christ Himself, of persons committing serious sins, not repenting, and being lost, though they were originally forgiven/justified.

Mat 18:

"32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

Here the Master is very clear that He first forgave that servant. He says the servant should have forgiven his brother/neighbor even as he himself was forgiven by God/Christ. But that servant refused to do so. Hence, he was lost.

Luk 12:

42And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.

45But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Here the Lord says (1) the servant who faithfully perseveres in doing the Master's Will till death/the Lord's Return will receive Salvation, be rewarded for it, made ruler of all things etc. (2) but that same servant if he does not patiently wait for the Lord's Coming, and falls into drunkenness, and abuses the other servants etc, will be punished by the Lord and lose Salvation. The Lord says this servant will now have the same place as unbelievers, i.e. hell. (3) in the final portion, the Lord says, the more we know, by e.g. reading the Word, the more faithfully we are obliged to practice what we know. Those who do not know will be beaten with fewer stripes. But those who do know, but did not obey, more. Let us try to follow the e.g. of the first faithful servant who faithfully obeyed the Lord, not for a single hour, but until his own death, or the Lord's Coming.

God Bless.

Those in the gospel accounts didn't even have the Holy Spirit. Again, one must rightly divide Israel and the body of Christ.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

The body of Christ has not even begun yet in John 15. Jesus is talking to his disciples. Context is key.

Romans 11:17-22
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[John146]

Romans 11:17-22
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Speaking of the Gentiles, the Lord may cut their chances off as he did the nation of Israel (fullness of the Gentiles).

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

Speaking of the Gentiles, the Lord may cut their chances off as he did the nation of Israel (fullness of the Gentiles).

Their chances to be grafted in?

Romans 11:17-18
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

 

[Grandpa]

According to scripture it matters.



That’s correct.



Not according to scripture.



That says “because.” People can’t believe in something until they hear about it and understand it. And therefore can’t be condemned on the basis of not believing in something they are incapable of knowing about.

Even Paul said that in order to believe a preacher must be sent. That’s very clear.





No I’m not. I just showed you your error above.

There's NO SCRIPTURE that says what you claim.

There's NO CAVEATS. Scripture is quite CLEAR.


All you have shown is YOUR IMAGINATION.


People are condemned because of not believing. There is no fault assigned to this. It is just pure FACT.

 

[Grandpa]

The Holy Spirit is Salvation. If we have the Holy Spirit, we have Salvation. If we die having the Holy Spirit, we go to Heaven. But we can lose the Holy Spirit by serious and willful sins. There are many examples of this in the Gospels and elsewhere.

Take the Kings of Israel: Saul, David and Solomon. Did they lose the Holy Spirit at any point in their lives. Saul almost certainly did. David did when he sinned but then received Him back and was saved. Solomon too. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit would not have inspired King David to write: "10Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.11Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.12Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.13Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you." (Psa 51).

King David confessed and repented of his sin, and he was forgiven as it says in 2 Chron 7:14 as well as 1 Jn 1:9.

In the NT, we see numerous examples, from Christ Himself, of persons committing serious sins, not repenting, and being lost, though they were originally forgiven/justified.

Mat 18:

"32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

Here the Master is very clear that He first forgave that servant. He says the servant should have forgiven his brother/neighbor even as he himself was forgiven by God/Christ. But that servant refused to do so. Hence, he was lost.

Luk 12:

42And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.

45But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Here the Lord says (1) the servant who faithfully perseveres in doing the Master's Will till death/the Lord's Return will receive Salvation, be rewarded for it, made ruler of all things etc. (2) but that same servant if he does not patiently wait for the Lord's Coming, and falls into drunkenness, and abuses the other servants etc, will be punished by the Lord and lose Salvation. The Lord says this servant will now have the same place as unbelievers, i.e. hell. (3) in the final portion, the Lord says, the more we know, by e.g. reading the Word, the more faithfully we are obliged to practice what we know. Those who do not know will be beaten with fewer stripes. But those who do know, but did not obey, more. Let us try to follow the e.g. of the first faithful servant who faithfully obeyed the Lord, not for a single hour, but until his own death, or the Lord's Coming.

God Bless.

John 10:28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


You are contradicting the Word of Lord. You have men plucking themselves out of the Fathers Hand and then putting themselves back then plucking themselves out again, by your False Philosophy.


John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

That's trusting in Christ. If you trust in your own works that is when you fail. If you trust in Christ He will never fail.


If someone has received the Holy Spirit then they DEFINITELY have trusted in Christ. They understand the Salvation of the Lord. How could they then go back to pretending to not understand this simple fact? They CAN'T. No Man CAN Pluck Them out of My Hand.

 

[Grandpa]

Shouldn't this be in scripture somewhere?

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Their chances to be grafted in?

Romans 11:17-18
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

This is paul warning the gentiles not to boast of how they were grafted in. It has nothing to do with anyone personal salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There's NO SCRIPTURE that says what you claim.

There's NO CAVEATS. Scripture is quite CLEAR.


All you have shown is YOUR IMAGINATION.


People are condemned because of not believing. There is no fault assigned to this. It is just pure FACT.

he who believes is not condemned

he who does not believe is condemned already!

Jesus is quite clear on who is saved vs who has not been saved

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

This is paul warning the gentiles not to boast of how they were grafted in.

What does Paul mean here (in bold)?

Romans 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

 

[John146]

Their chances to be grafted in?

Romans 11:17-18
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

This part of chapter 11 is directed at the off of salvation to the Gentile world. If God took it away from Israel, will he not also take the offer away from the Gentiles?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

This part of chapter 11 is directed at the off of salvation to the Gentile world.

Of the gentile world, or of the gentiles who were grafted in?

Romans 11:17-18
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Romans 11:19-22
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

This part of chapter 11 is directed at the off of salvation to the Gentile world.

To the gentile world or gentiles that were grafted in and didn't continue in His kindness?

Romans 11:17-22
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off

 

[Runningman]

There's NO SCRIPTURE that says what you claim.

There's NO CAVEATS. Scripture is quite CLEAR.


All you have shown is YOUR IMAGINATION.


People are condemned because of not believing. There is no fault assigned to this. It is just pure FACT.

Not according to scripture.

The word because means "for that reason" so it follows that if there is a standard for condemnation and no condemnation then God can't judge people for rejecting Christ if they have never heard of Christ nor have rejected Christ.

John 3:18
18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Jesus doesn't deny people before His Father in Heaven who have never denied Him:
Matthew 10
32Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

I proved it. Now it's up to you what to do with it. Perhaps now is a good chance for you to understand more about how fair and righteous our God is.

 

[Runningman]

We are saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Once in Christ, we cannot be taken out of his body, unborn. The loss of salvation is not in the word of God when one rightly divides Israel from the body of Christ.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand what it means to be in Christ just based off of what you said. Please don't take that as a knock, but rather as a wakeup call.

So much more could be said about how Christ is in His Father and how we are in Christ. Even Christ gave stories about vines and branches being cut off to help illustrate how this works, Paul did too, but I find that it's better if you have something more direct, concrete, and open to less interpretation. Hebrews 3 provides it.

Hebrews 3
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

 

[John146]

Of the gentile world, or of the gentiles who were grafted in?

Romans 11:17-18
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Romans 11:19-22
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

I speak to you Gentiles...as a whole, the Gentile nations. Romans 9-11 explains the advantages Israel had, but because they rejected Christ, the Lord offered Gentiles salvation. Paul warns, that offer will end when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Runningman]

Dear OSAS adherents, I implore you to read Romans 11, especially the bit I showed you below.

Romans 11
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

Paul warns, that offer will end when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Yes, in verse 25.
In verses 17-22, is Paul talking about the entire gentile world potentially being cutoff like Israel or those who were grafted in and stand by faith?

Romans 11:17-22
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off

 

[Runningman]

Yes, in verse 25.
In verses 17-22, is Paul talking about the entire gentile world potentially being cutoff like Israel or those who were grafted in and stand by faith?

Romans 11:17-22
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off

23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And it's possible to be cut off and grafted in again, or not at all for that matter, if one persists in unbelief. This debunks OSAS.