Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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BreatheFocusBet

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I believe Jesus compares eternal life to a vine for this reason: we must be connected to Him to have it. However

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers.

"But how is it eternal life if it ends?"

Consider this

1 Samuel 2:30
Therefore, the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me! For I will honor those who honor Me, but those who despise Me will be disdained.

We must persevere in doing good to have eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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there are times when you are close to the Lord and times when you are far away, out of your own choice, its like say you got married, and then. decided not to live with your spouse anymore, not speak to them, become estranged, but on paper, you still married...but are you really? You may as well be divorced?!

But if you argue once married, always married, that makes no sense if you decide you dont want to be married anymore....wouldnt it be the quality of your marriage rather than the fact that you got married that counts? Its more than being married at the altar...you have to remmeber you are married and live accordingly.

People cant say oh they were never married in the first place....there seem to be photos and documents proving it.....
 
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John146

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BreatheFocusBet said:
Yes, in verse 25.
In verses 17-22, is Paul talking about the entire gentile world potentially being cutoff like Israel or those who were grafted in and stand by faith?

Romans 11:17-22
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off
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The opportunity of the Gentiles will be cut off when the fullness of the Gentiles are come in. Then God will turn back to Israel.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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BreatheFocusBet said:
What does Paul mean here (in bold)?

Romans 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.
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That if he did not spare the natural branches (Israel) he will nto spare you (gentiles)

he is talking to the gentile church, not the induviduals people.

Look at context

1. Natural branches = Israel
2. Unnatural branches = Gentiles
3. Israel - blinded in part (remnant)
4. Paul - I speak to you Gentiles (not Israel)
5. Israel (all) will be saved at a period of time (fullness of gentiles complete)
6. Israel - Enemy concerni g the gospel. Beloved concerning the election

There is no individuality in context in Romans 11
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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BreatheFocusBet said:
Of the gentile world, or of the gentiles who were grafted in?

Romans 11:17-18
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Romans 11:19-22
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Click to expand...
The term gentile in Romans 11 refers to all saved gentiles.. The gentile church was grafted in, Israel was cut off (as a nation)
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
Not according to scripture. :giggle:

The word because means "for that reason" so it follows that if there is a standard for condemnation and no condemnation then God can't judge people for rejecting Christ if they have never heard of Christ nor have rejected Christ.

John 3:18
18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Jesus doesn't deny people before His Father in Heaven who have never denied Him:
Matthew 10
32Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

I proved it. Now it's up to you what to do with it. Perhaps now is a good chance for you to understand more about how fair and righteous our God is.
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The prob;‘em with your thinking is you forget or ignore what was said before

”Has already been condemned“

they were not in a state of un condemnation at one point, then fell off and are now recondemned.

It is in the perfect tense, They have always been in a condemned state.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
Dear OSAS adherents, I implore you to read Romans 11, especially the bit I showed you below.

Romans 11
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
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I implore you to read romans 11 in context. The issue is gentile believers vs Israel believers. And how Israel was cut off. And gentiles grafted in. There will be a time when Israel is grafted back in and all israel will be saved.

its not concerning induvidual believers. Its about two groups of people
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And it's possible to be cut off and grafted in again, or not at all for that matter, if one persists in unbelief. This debunks OSAS.
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Wrong

Israel was in. They as a nation were cut off because of there unbelief (national)

they (as a nation) will be grafted in again when they repent. Which the OT prophets state they will. And they (as a nation) will be restored.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Eternal life is eternal. Why do people want to make it conditional life?

If God wanted us to know we had conditional life he would have called it conditional life

”for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes MAY never die, and has CONDITIONAL LIFE.

sorry. My bible does not teach conditional life. We can not earn salvation. So we can’t unearned salvation
 
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BreatheFocusBet

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KostasLT

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If everything in the world is premeditated then what's the point in us existing? Why just not send the righteous to heaven and the wicked to hell from beginning?
 
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brightfame52

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To teach or believe against eternal security of those for whom Christ died and saved, its to speak against the perfection it made them, for whom He died, and that forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering{His death/blood] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Now for one of these to lose their Salvation, its to undo the the perfect work of God Deut 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
 
cv5

cv5

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John146 said:
The opportunity of the Gentiles will be cut off when the fullness of the Gentiles are come in. Then God will turn back to Israel.
Click to expand...
As far as the Chruch Age is concerned.......yes.
 
ResidentAlien

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brightfame52 said:
To teach or believe against eternal security of those for whom Christ died and saved, its to speak against the perfection it made them, for whom He died, and that forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering{His death/blood] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with your interpretation of this passage. It's not as simple as you think it is.
 
K

KostasLT

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brightfame52 said:
To teach or believe against eternal security of those for whom Christ died and saved, its to speak against the perfection it made them, for whom He died, and that forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering{His death/blood] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Now for one of these to lose their Salvation, its to undo the the perfect work of God Deut 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Click to expand...
But what's the point in this world ever existing if it is already determined who will have eternal life and who will not?

Doesn't God desire all people to be saved?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
cv5

cv5

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KostasLT said:
But what's the point in this world ever existing if it is already determined who will have eternal life and who will not?
Click to expand...
Irrelevant as far as we are concerned. Such matters are beyond our purview. Our task is to preach aka "broadcast" the gospel message "good seed".

The Lord is taking care of the rest.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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KostasLT said:
If everything in the world is premeditated then what's the point in us existing? Why just not send the righteous to heaven and the wicked to hell from beginning?
Click to expand...
KostasLT said:
But what's the point in this world ever existing if it is already determined who will have eternal life and who will not?

Doesn't God desire all people to be saved?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Click to expand...
It's a fair question because it's sometimes difficult to reconcile some things we believe about God and scriptures that can seem a bit duplicitous.
I've found personally that often my view of God was in error or my understanding of God too small.
We sometimes forget that while God is loving and merciful and gracious, He is also sovereign and just and holy. He does not stop being one to be the other, but is all these things at all times.
This helped me. Hope it helps you.
 
G

Grandpa

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Runningman said:
Not according to scripture. :giggle:

The word because means "for that reason" so it follows that if there is a standard for condemnation and no condemnation then God can't judge people for rejecting Christ if they have never heard of Christ nor have rejected Christ.

John 3:18
18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Jesus doesn't deny people before His Father in Heaven who have never denied Him:
Matthew 10
32Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

I proved it. Now it's up to you what to do with it. Perhaps now is a good chance for you to understand more about how fair and righteous our God is.
Click to expand...
You didn't prove anything except that you don't understand scripture, or Salvation.

The reason someone is condemned is because they have not believed in the Lord Jesus.

If they have not believed in the Lord Jesus then they CAN'T confess Him before men.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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BreatheFocusBet said:
What did Paul mean by "did not spare"?
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What does it matter

He is talking about Isreal (saved and unsaved) vs gentile (saved)

He is telling the gentile church to not be puffed up. That God did not spare Israel. And let them be captured. He would not spell the gentile church if they fell away also. Which prophecy states they will

It has NOTHING to do with induvidual people
 
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KostasLT

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cv5 said:
Irrelevant as far as we are concerned. Such matters are beyond our purview. Our task is to preach aka "broadcast" the gospel message "good seed".

The Lord is taking care of the rest.
Click to expand...
Still free will makes more sense than eternal security. The risk of falling away from faith is real, especially in our days.
Cameron143 said:
It's a fair question because it's sometimes difficult to reconcile some things we believe about God and scriptures that can seem a bit duplicitous.
I've found personally that often my view of God was in error or my understanding of God too small.
We sometimes forget that while God is loving and merciful and gracious, He is also sovereign and just and holy. He does not stop being one to be the other, but is all these things at all times.
This helped me. Hope it helps you.
Click to expand...
I never denied He is sovereign. But this you are saved forever and can't turn away doctrine doesn't sound godly at all, and is very harmful to Christians, often leading to laziness and self-justification. We aren't yet in Heaven.
 
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